Advise and support needed please

Hello, I'm cavelady and new to this forum, however have been mum to my lovely Poppy for nine years (lop). She has been in excellent health all her life, however she is slowing down, her teeth are turning brown, she has lumps on her mammary glands (just discovered these last week) she is not able to really clean herself (again started last week), so bathe her now and then, she has goo coming from tear ducts (this has all come on gradually over last two months). I took her to vets and got eye drops (two seperate occassions, two different sets of drops) neither worked, resorted to massaging tear duct and wiping away goo with cool boiled water. Vet said to carry on doing this as seemed to be working. Vet examined Poppy and said that really as she is an old lady the chance of her getting an xray may put her in more jeopardy (aneasthetic etc..). I feel that I dont want to put her through that, but she seems to be getting worse. However she still eats her food, and I have been giving her treats more, which she snatches from my hand. She is drinking lots of water and seems to be incontenant too??!! Vet knows all this. I am just worried that she is really suffering and not telling me.... I dont want to lose her, but I dont want to have her suffer. I just wanted to ask when do you REALLY KNOW that enough is enough? Sorry for all this but none of my friends have rabbits and the vet just said to keep an eye on her and if the lumps get hard, bald and hot then bring her back.

Hi :wave: I'm sorry to read your Poppy bunny is going downhill and is rather unwell by the sounds of things at the moment. You must be very worried about her. 9yrs old is a very good age so far though!
Can I just ask some preliminary questions? Is she spayed? and has she had some bloodwork done for things like E.C and renal/liver function etc? Has she had a urine sample analysed?
Can the vet feel any lumps/bumps around her face? how to her molar teeth look on oral exam alone? (inconclusive but might give some idea as to what is going on in her mouth) Is she eating, drinking and pooing ok?

Thanks Prettylupin , Poppy has been in excellent condition from the word go. The only time I have to take her to the vet is for her mixxy jab every year. The lady I got her from couldnt believe that she was still going strong and that was two years ago, and the vet said she has gone over and above the average life span, so is reluctant to mess her about. She had no urine sample, no lumps on her face, vet says her teeth are not the best condition but said she is old, there doesnt seem to be any problems (vet stuck that thing to back of her teeth and all seems well). She went off her food for a few days, but now seems to be wanting more and more (loves treats). She is drinking way more than normal, is pooing normal, but weeing a lot (but wee is not thick). She just seems to want to sit in same place all day, when I give her run of garden she sits under a ladder not moving, so bring her back in. I did wonder if being man handled by the vet might have made her joints stiff and sore (she did whince a couple of times). I just dont know what to do. She is an old lady, I dont want to give her stress.

Sorry, no blood works have been done.

cavelady said:

Thanks Prettylupin , Poppy has been in excellent condition from the word go. The only time I have to take her to the vet is for her mixxy jab every year. The lady I got her from couldnt believe that she was still going strong and that was two years ago, and the vet said she has gone over and above the average life span, so is reluctant to mess her about. She had no urine sample, no lumps on her face, vet says her teeth are not the best condition but said she is old, there doesnt seem to be any problems (vet stuck that thing to back of her teeth and all seems well). She went off her food for a few days, but now seems to be wanting more and more (loves treats). She is drinking way more than normal, is pooing normal, but weeing a lot (but wee is not thick). She just seems to want to sit in same place all day, when I give her run of garden she sits under a ladder not moving, so bring her back in. I did wonder if being man handled by the vet might have made her joints stiff and sore (she did whince a couple of times). I just dont know what to do. She is an old lady, I dont want to give her stress.

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Hi there, OK, well I don't want to undermine your vet, but my concern is that your vet may not be the most rabbit-savvy based on what you have said above? :? Myxi vaccinations are currently recommended 6 monthly not anually these days (although anually is better than nothing). Buns can also live up to 10-12 yrs in some cases, so 9 years really isn't that old - although is pretty good going in my book. You will find there are some experienced rescuers and retirement home people on here who have many buns in this age range and they are still perfectly able to undergo further investigations and even GA's and dentals, Xrays etc in order to rule out any straightforward and treatable illnesses that will give bunnies last few years some good quality of life. I would not entirely rule out the possibility of further investigation at this stage, but of course it is entirely your choice and you know your Poppy best. I am wondering however that the fact you have posted at all is that you have some doubts in your mind that there is nothing to be done? I sense that you feel there might be? I would certainly want a confirmation from a rabbit-savvy vet first that this is the case.

If you let us know where in the Country you are someone on here might be able to suggest a good vet?

Her excessive drinking could be as a result of age-related kidney disease but it could also be a straightforward urinary tract or bladder infection? I would want a urine sample done and perhaps some covering antibiotics to see if things improve? If she is incontinent then she may be uncomfortable? Her bladder may not be emptying properly? Sometimes this is treatable. I woud certainly want her to be having pain relief at this stage regardless, especially if you sense her wincing. EC can also present this way.
If she had some bloods done and she was confirmed fit for a GA then an Xray of her head/jaw might be sensible to assess tooth involvement. But I do appreciate her age greatly and your not wanting to stress her out and put her at more risk.
I think perhaps she could certainly be made more comfortable with pain relief and clearing up any present infection if this is the case?

I take it she is not spayed then? Can you confirm this for me? It is a possibility that she could....considering her lumps on her mammary glands - have some related issues to this. I don't want to worry you though. Unfortunately unspayed does are at a high risk of adenocarcinoma in their latter years (over age 4-5 yrs) I'm sorry to have to mention this possibility.

Just as an extra...if she is stiff and sore - then due to her age arthritis/spondylosis etc is also a possibilty. Again palliative non-steroidal anti-inflammatories will do a great deal to make her feel more comfortable. I really feel that whatever the outcome she would benefit greatly from some pain relief such as Meloxicam/Metacam.

I hope someone more experienced with elderly bunnies comes along soon!
BUMP!

:wave:

If it was me I think I would opt for blood tests first, I certainly wouldn't rush into x-rays under GA at your bunnies age.

Brown teeth are quite normal for a bunny of you age, and if she is eating well then I think it is unlikely to be tooth roots, although I am no vet and only an x-ray would rule that out completely. It isn't the first thing I would be worried about from what you have said.

My concern is the lumps on her mammary glands, it doesn't sound like she has been spayed. If this is the case she could well have developed uterine cancer which spreads to the mammary glands. As this is a painful condition it would explain her unwillingness to keep herself clean and to move around.

If she has been spayed I would still be concerned about tumours elsewhere in the body. This is where a blood test or even conscious x-rays of the abdomen would be useful.

It is highly likely that given her age she is very arthritic and this may be the reason she is getting wet underneath. She may not be able to sit in the right position when she urinates due to pain in her spine/hips/hindlegs getting urine on herself. The same pain may also be stopping her from cleaning herself and moving around too.

I would certainly get her to a rabbit savvy vet asap for a better assessment. It is quite possible she needs pain relief urgently and further investigations into her problems

Just the person I was hoping for! Thank you Liz

Cavelady - I hope it all works out ok

Hi thank you so much for all your advise. Poppy has not been spayed and I was never advised to get her done. I really dont want Poppy to go through the trauma of xray under GA, but I will be going to get bloods done, I am sure this cannot be any more stressful than a mixy jab? (we only get yearly reminders, they've never mentioned every 6 months :shock But she has been a very healthy bunny.
She started getting more stiff after her examination, and when I went to bathe her yesterday she whinced every time I put her down. I will ask about getting pain relief . I am getting the impression that my vet is not bunny savvy as you say. I asked how can I tell if she's in pain, but thats when they said keep an eye on the lumps and if they get hard, bald and hot to come back.....????!!! I just dont want her to suffer and if there is anything I can do to make her comfortable I wanted to know, but the vet never gave me any options. But thank you so much for all your advise and I will keep you updated.

I would definately ask for pain relief, the fact that she isn't moving much and is getting wet underneath indicates pain to me.

Given that she isn't spayed I would definately ask for bloods and possibly conscious abdominal x-rays. The lumps becoming hot and hard would indicate that they are becoming infected, but they could still be causing her pain without an infection present.

Have you noticed if there is any blood in her urine? might be worth getting a urine sample if possible

Good luck with your vet, if you are not happy with the advice they are giving you I would look around for a more rabbit savvy one. as someone has already said, if you give us your location I am sure someone on here could recommend one for you :wave:

I've nothing to add to all the great info you've been given so far, but just wanted to send some healing wishes .

me too. healing and comforting wishes for poppy bun and her mummy.

My 11yr old bunny Chelsea has vastly improved since being given Cartrophen injections-a course of one a week for 4 weeks, every 6 months for her arthritis. You would need a rabbit-savvy vet to confirm if her stiffness was in fact arthritis. Cartrophen is not licensed for rabbits-only dogs- but as few medications are licensed for rabbits, a competant experienced vet is usually willing to administer those licensed for other small animals when appropriate.
My vet spayed a bunny at age 9yrs with no problems (she came to me from a rescue unspayed as their vet was apprehensive of the risks with an older bunny).
My vet Jason Burgess, has operated on many older rabbits and while the risks of operating on an older bunny still exist, he is an expert in his field and I would thoroughly recommend him (as others on here have done). If you are anywhere near Gloucester he would be able to diagnose if she has arthritis and advise on a spay, bearing in mind the unknown lumps.
(please pm my daughter bunlover for his telephone number if you would like it, as I am not on here often.)
I go by his reccommendation of 6monthly myxi injections as Gloucester is a high risk area. (Chelsea contracted the nodular form of myxi despite regular vaccination at 9yrs and was lucky to pull through with his help)
Many rabbits live to 12yrs and some beyond, depending on breed.
I hope you will find the right treatment for Poppy and pain relief where necessary. Sending get well wishes-Sue:wave:

ps-some useful tips?
I have to bathe Chelseas eye daily due to a tearduct blocked with scar tissue from myxi nodule,(it is not infected) and I find cotton wool pads(the ones for cleaning eye make-up) are really soft and gentle. They do not have loose fibres(which could get in her eye) like the cotton wool balls, and are softer than a terry towel flannel. I simply squeeze lukewarm water onto the weepy part then use a couple to pat dry as they soak up the water well. (The rabbits tears normally appear cloudy because they are so salty and it is the salt that damages the skin and fur folicles over time). If any little bald patches appear in the fur under the eye, I put a tiny smear of vaseline as thin as possible on it,which seems to help.
I put a thin layer of woodchips under a whole newspaper and top with hay as her "litter tray" as she finds it awkward to get into her litter tray since developing a large myxi scar on her front paw. If Poppy is uncomfortable she may find it easier than a litter tray? There are also plastic-backed fleeces that you can buy for rabbits and rewash, though Chelsea didnt take to it and much prefers the hay topped newspaper, which is actually easier to clean than a litter tray.

Thank you everyone for all the help. I live in the highlands near Inverness, my vet has a brilliant rep, but you dont always get the same person when you go, so maybe that person wasnt up to rabbit standards.
I have replaced her litter tray now as you suggested Sue, I think she is a lot happier (not catching her legs so much) and will discuss with the vet everything you have all suggested. Will keep you updated.:wave: