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poppymoon
18-08-2009, 10:38 AM
even tho eric doesn't seem to eat huge amounts of grass when he's outside, he always seems to do a few large squishy poo's (sometimes when he first goes out there and hasn't eaten ANY grass). there are also some normal ones but not as many when he's done one of his big squishers (sorry:oops:).

he's also moulting rather a lot at the moment so some of his half eaten poops contain fur.

he's eating and drinking well and behaving as eric:roll: he doesn't seem in any discomfort at all.

i've removed the few pellets he had left this morning (he doesn't scoff them overnight - saves a few for lunchtime:?) and he always has lots of fresh hay.

any ideas as to why the soft poo's keep appearing on the grass? sometimes its like he holds onto his business til he goes outside these days - hasn't wee'd in his cage very often at all lately but as soon as he goes outside, the flood gates open.

what should i do? (vet trips stress him out big time too and he usually doesn't eat for a couple of days).

he's binkying like a nutter at the moment:love:

poppymoon
18-08-2009, 03:21 PM
please?

Jack's-Jane
18-08-2009, 03:53 PM
Do you mean he is leaving caecal poos on the grass ?

poppymoon
18-08-2009, 05:23 PM
Do you mean he is leaving caecal poos on the grass ?

no jane. he's still eating those. the poo's on the grass are large and soft - a bit squidgy but not lovely caecals:?

Rhian33
18-08-2009, 05:28 PM
Does he go out on grass every day? If not do you feed him grass on the days that he doesn't go out?

poppymoon
18-08-2009, 05:33 PM
Does he go out on grass every day? If not do you feed him grass on the days that he doesn't go out?

yes, he's out on grass every day (as he chooses). doesn't seem to eat much of it, just likes to scent every blade i think.

Rhian33
18-08-2009, 05:35 PM
Hmmm, I was going to suggest that it could be having grass and then not which was doing it. Does it only happen outside? If so maybe you could find out if it is th egrass causing it by keeping him in for a day and making sure he doesn't do any of thise nasty poos and then the next day feed him some grass maybe in with his hay if he won't eat it on it's own and see if he does them then.

poppymoon
18-08-2009, 05:51 PM
Hmmm, I was going to suggest that it could be having grass and then not which was doing it. Does it only happen outside? If so maybe you could find out if it is th egrass causing it by keeping him in for a day and making sure he doesn't do any of thise nasty poos and then the next day feed him some grass maybe in with his hay if he won't eat it on it's own and see if he does them then.

thank you. looks like i'll have to do that - poor eric! he makes me feel so guilty by looking out of the window with big sad eyes whilst i'm getting the guinea pigs out and he's inside:?

there have been the odd 1 or 2 squidgy ones inside but only after he's been outside for a while then come back in for a snack.

Rhian33
18-08-2009, 06:25 PM
thank you. looks like i'll have to do that - poor eric! he makes me feel so guilty by looking out of the window with big sad eyes whilst i'm getting the guinea pigs out and he's inside:?

there have been the odd 1 or 2 squidgy ones inside but only after he's been outside for a while then come back in for a snack.

Well there's only one way of finding out if it is actually the grass that's doing it. Good luck.

thumps_
18-08-2009, 11:00 PM
Am I right that Eric is a "dental bunny"? I reckon they're uneaten caecotrophs - probably smelly, cos there is a mild overgrowth of the wrong bacteria in his caecum. [dysbiosis] He won't eat them if they don't smell right. I think this happened before, before his last dental & neutering yes?

It's the standard of no sudden changes to diet, & very important to avoid anything with sugar (even fruit) starch - eg red part of carrot - or honey in it. You may need to reduce his veg a bit - perhaps his beans.

Although I am a minority in giving added fiber in tree & shrub leaves it has been recently recommended by Edinburgh Vet school to improve lower gut function. (see Pringle's last thread) It's not just hawthorn but bramble leaves, dog rose, sloe, & nettles (can be dethorned / sting with a rolling pin) They can be dried easily & added to hay.

A little Biolapis in his drinking water can help to restore normal bacteria in addition to increasing fiber.
Poor Eric will be on a high fiber wildie diet, + lots of herbs! but feel better, & MAY even have improved behaviour. Wonder if all that wall paper stripping was because he craved fiber?

poppymoon
19-08-2009, 09:14 AM
Am I right that Eric is a "dental bunny"? I reckon they're uneaten caecotrophs - probably smelly, cos there is a mild overgrowth of the wrong bacteria in his caecum. [dysbiosis] He won't eat them if they don't smell right. I think this happened before, before his last dental & neutering yes?

It's the standard of no sudden changes to diet, & very important to avoid anything with sugar (even fruit) starch - eg red part of carrot - or honey in it. You may need to reduce his veg a bit - perhaps his beans.

Although I am a minority in giving added fiber in tree & shrub leaves it has been recently recommended by Edinburgh Vet school to improve lower gut function. (see Pringle's last thread) It's not just hawthorn but bramble leaves, dog rose, sloe, & nettles (can be dethorned / sting with a rolling pin) They can be dried easily & added to hay.

A little Biolapis in his drinking water can help to restore normal bacteria in addition to increasing fiber.
Poor Eric will be on a high fiber wildie diet, + lots of herbs! but feel better, & MAY even have improved behaviour. Wonder if all that wall paper stripping was because he craved fiber?

thank you judy. yes, i have mentioned this problem with eric before (sorry, forgot:oops:) but they really don't look like caecotrophs and they only seem to occur whilst outside. i already give him the herbs and he doesn't like carrots, nor does he have any sugary treats. i do give him jerusalem artichoke and coneflower from the naturals range occasionally tho as they seem to be quite high in fibre and i'm not up to going out to try and find brambles and nettles at the moment. the wildies in our garden eat privet and plum tree leaves - its a shame i can't give either to eric. the hay he eats has dried nettle in or peppermint too.

he is due for a dental check up in 3 weeks and i'll have to be prepared to leave him in overnight - another wretched ga. what is the connection btw a dental bun and dysbiosis?

i'm thinking it must be an imbalance in his gut bacteria but i can't work out why it happens. his behaviour does seem to be calming a little tho-haven't lost a wire or wallpaper all week (just a few nibbles of the yellow pages).

no idea where i can get some bio lapis - hopefully online:?

Jack's-Jane
19-08-2009, 09:17 AM
no idea where i can get some bio lapis - hopefully online:?

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1175 :)

poppymoon
19-08-2009, 09:39 AM
http://www.vetuk.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1175 :)

thanks jane. i'll order some now. it is ok to give this 'just in case' tho to even a seemingly healthy rabbit? bit like us drinking that orrible yoghurt stuff i suppose? (its never helped me - maybe i'll try bio lapis too:D).

poppymoon
19-08-2009, 10:00 AM
this is probably a stupid question but how will i know if eric has drunk enough of his water when i put a sachet of bio lapis in it? i change his water a few times a day:?

Sue_P
19-08-2009, 11:26 AM
My Henry was prescribed Bio Lapis a few days before he died, the vet said to split up one sachet and just give him a quarter of it a day. :shock: Looks like too little too late. :cry:

poppymoon
19-08-2009, 12:09 PM
sorry to hear about henry. any idea what caused his death?:(

thumps_
19-08-2009, 06:20 PM
Oops this is getting complicated!
a) Yes Biolapis works just like yoghurt in humans - & they've been giving it to humans in the last year too. :shock: There's no "dose" it just swamps the system with healthy bacteria To stop overgrowth of bad ones.
b) Don't know about bunnies - but jerusalem artichoke has a "sugar" ?inositol which some humans can't metabolize - gives humans gut Dysbiosis - Smelly "wind". Probably the 1st. diet change to make.
c) Didn't know you've got wildies in your garden. It explains why Eric is scenting "every blade of grass"= "This is MY territory keep off". We're in a bit different ball game, best discussed with your vet. Some wildie colonies are infected with coccidiosis & other gut parasites - transmitted to other buns in poops. I've no experience of coccidiosis - but there's a forum member with a dental bun & coccidiosis from wildies.
d) Squidgy poops. I had a problem grasping this too - they're nothing like the normal caecs. As I understand it the wrong bacteria can make toxins which slow down the lower gut & caecum. This allows the wrong bacteria to multiply further.When it was very mild we had normal caecs, squidgy ones, & waste poops too. The long term solution is to speed up the lower gut naturally - this means a very high fiber diet.
e) The link between dental probs & tummy probs is 2 fold.
1 Pain & discomfort (mouth) or anywhere slows down a bunny's gut.
2 Bunny gut works on a poops out food in basis. Mouth hurts so eats a bit less - gut slows down from less intake - feel full so eat even less - gut slows down more etc. start to get dysbiosis - toxins slow down gut more. With Thumper I notice a gradual reduction in waste poops when he needs a dental - just eating slightly less.

Any stress slows a bunny's gut too. It's not the main factor with us but will tip the balance.

Sorry for a long post - hope it answers your questions.
All the best, please let us know how you're getting on. Judy & Thumper.

poppymoon
19-08-2009, 08:41 PM
Oops this is getting complicated!
a) Yes Biolapis works just like yoghurt in humans - & they've been giving it to humans in the last year too. :shock: There's no "dose" it just swamps the system with healthy bacteria To stop overgrowth of bad ones.
b) Don't know about bunnies - but jerusalem artichoke has a "sugar" ?inositol which some humans can't metabolize - gives humans gut Dysbiosis - Smelly "wind". Probably the 1st. diet change to make.
c) Didn't know you've got wildies in your garden. It explains why Eric is scenting "every blade of grass"= "This is MY territory keep off". We're in a bit different ball game, best discussed with your vet. Some wildie colonies are infected with coccidiosis & other gut parasites - transmitted to other buns in poops. I've no experience of coccidiosis - but there's a forum member with a dental bun & coccidiosis from wildies.
d) Squidgy poops. I had a problem grasping this too - they're nothing like the normal caecs. As I understand it the wrong bacteria can make toxins which slow down the lower gut & caecum. This allows the wrong bacteria to multiply further.When it was very mild we had normal caecs, squidgy ones, & waste poops too. The long term solution is to speed up the lower gut naturally - this means a very high fiber diet.
e) The link between dental probs & tummy probs is 2 fold.
1 Pain & discomfort (mouth) or anywhere slows down a bunny's gut.
2 Bunny gut works on a poops out food in basis. Mouth hurts so eats a bit less - gut slows down from less intake - feel full so eat even less - gut slows down more etc. start to get dysbiosis - toxins slow down gut more. With Thumper I notice a gradual reduction in waste poops when he needs a dental - just eating slightly less.

Any stress slows a bunny's gut too. It's not the main factor with us but will tip the balance.

Sorry for a long post - hope it answers your questions.
All the best, please let us know how you're getting on. Judy & Thumper.

thank you judy. that was very informative.

i've been to the vets with eric tonight as for the first time ever i had to clean his bum. he was munching loads of hay but hadn't left any poops behind - odd, so i looked. they were stuck to him so i cleaned him up and went straight to the vets.

she checked him over and prescribed bio lapis as she could feel some normal poo in his guts and not an alarming amount of anything else - not even any gas.

he wasn't in any pain and she checked his teeth - fine at the mo.

i explained that he hadn't been totally normal since the castration and had episodes of squidgy poop - especially after being outside. she said the stress of the op and his dental at that time could have started the disturbance but that hopefully the bio lapis will help (she said i was doing the right things too regards his diet).

my vet knows about the wildies we have - hence my prompt earlier for his 6 monthly myxi jab but obviously, that will have to wait until he's 100% now. she didn't mention anything as sinister as coccidiosis as it does seem more like an imbalance (as you described - thank you:)) as the poop isn't watery and he does have normal ones too. if he doesn't improve with bio lapis (IF i can get him to take it in any way) i'll be taking him back on monday and will mention my further concerns.

who said having pets relieved stress eh:(

thumps_
19-08-2009, 09:14 PM
I'm so pleased it's a simple problem & you've seen your vet - got the all clear about the wildies etc.
Looking forward to hearing that Eric's back on pooping form again.
I know what you mean about poorly bunnies though - stress puts it mildly!
All the best Judy & Thumper. + nose rub to Eric from us.

poppymoon
19-08-2009, 09:38 PM
I'm so pleased it's a simple problem & you've seen your vet - got the all clear about the wildies etc.
Looking forward to hearing that Eric's back on pooping form again.
I know what you mean about poorly bunnies though - stress puts it mildly!
All the best Judy & Thumper. + nose rub to Eric from us.

thank you.

i wouldn't say its the all clear about the wildies - the risk is still there unless i totally confine eric to the house. i don't think the vet suspected coccidiosis as i suppose a dirty bum is quite common and eric shows no real sign of illness - thankfully. plus, she said to eric that his mummy always thinks along the same lines she does when i mentioned pro biotocs (oops:oops: i apologised and said i like to find things out but she just said i obviously looked after eric well).

he looked rather miffed he didn't get any pellets earlier but did some lovely poops whilst munching his hay:D hay and herbs for now eric m'dear until i feel well enough to go exploring to find some woodland goodies.......

lizardgirlkelsey
19-08-2009, 10:25 PM
this just may night poos. it looks like a bunch of little grapes squished together and it can be large. this is normal. they poop these out at night. they contain a lot of nutrients for your bunny and they are suppose to be eaten by your rabbit. if it is not this then try giving him a different brand of pellets. gently/ gradually switch his foods not fast or you can upset his stomach. also try giving him parsley. a handfull of cloves. parlseys low in calories so its a great treat for them!

hope this helped

prettylupin
19-08-2009, 11:01 PM
Hope Eric's poops get better soon :)

I was going to add something to the science but Judy has covered it all :D :thumb:
I have to say that when I give the buns shoots off our apple tree....the entire twig gets chewed up as if it were a thick strand of hay! :lol:
I would personally keep Eric on just hay and water for a couple of days until the poops clear up completely and then reintroduce his pellets and veg....
Happy woodland exploring! I find beside a river/stream has the best plantain and dandelions. Blackberry/raspberry leaves are also very good for scours according to my book! :D

prettylupin
19-08-2009, 11:03 PM
Just one final thought.....Poppy had this once with the spring surge of grass growth from all the sugar in the 'quick' growth! And Nino got it once following some fresh herbs from a certain supermarket that I didn't wash first!....I have always thought strong Chlorine was the culprit on that occasion. Fascinating the things that can cause an acute dysbiosis!

thumps_
20-08-2009, 12:21 AM
Just one final thought.....Poppy had this once with the spring surge of grass growth from all the sugar in the 'quick' growth! And Nino got it once following some fresh herbs from a certain supermarket that I didn't wash first!....I have always thought strong Chlorine was the culprit on that occasion. Fascinating the things that can cause an acute dysbiosis!

Only heard a few weeks ago of a builder who swam 20 MILES daily - got dysbiosis from chlorinated swimming pool. :shock::shock::wave:

prettylupin
20-08-2009, 08:03 AM
Only heard a few weeks ago of a builder who swam 20 MILES daily - got dysbiosis from chlorinated swimming pool. :shock::shock::wave:

No way! :shock: Ah well that's convinced me then! Always wash your veggies folks....and try to discourage your bunny from swimming in the local pool! :lol:
Thanks Judy :D

poppymoon
20-08-2009, 08:23 AM
Hope Eric's poops get better soon :)

I was going to add something to the science but Judy has covered it all :D :thumb:
I have to say that when I give the buns shoots off our apple tree....the entire twig gets chewed up as if it were a thick strand of hay! :lol:
I would personally keep Eric on just hay and water for a couple of days until the poops clear up completely and then reintroduce his pellets and veg....
Happy woodland exploring! I find beside a river/stream has the best plantain and dandelions. Blackberry/raspberry leaves are also very good for scours according to my book! :D

thank you for the extra info:D

i just cannot find any apple trees anywhere! may take a trip to somerset:p. i did find some willow trees last time i went exploring but the trunks were totally obscured or blocked off. if i can't get at the bark, shall i break off some of the lower thin branches and leaves? (i don't make a habit of vandalising trees, i just want to help eric:oops:). i'll be able to spot blackberry leaves too - daft question but are the leaves spikey or just the rest of the plant?

poppymoon
20-08-2009, 08:27 AM
Just one final thought.....Poppy had this once with the spring surge of grass growth from all the sugar in the 'quick' growth! And Nino got it once following some fresh herbs from a certain supermarket that I didn't wash first!....I have always thought strong Chlorine was the culprit on that occasion. Fascinating the things that can cause an acute dysbiosis!

now there's a thought - i grow my own mint but eric went off that but i do buy basil pots from a well known supermarket (i love basil but so does eric) and i don't wash it thoroughly before i use it........ i will do now! thanks:D

watching the wildies outside amazes me - they eat privet bark, plum tree leaves, anything - and they're as happy as larry:roll: what have we done to 'nature':?

prettylupin
20-08-2009, 08:36 AM
thank you for the extra info:D

i just cannot find any apple trees anywhere! may take a trip to somerset:p. i did find some willow trees last time i went exploring but the trunks were totally obscured or blocked off. if i can't get at the bark, shall i break off some of the lower thin branches and leaves? (i don't make a habit of vandalising trees, i just want to help eric:oops:). i'll be able to spot blackberry leaves too - daft question but are the leaves spikey or just the rest of the plant?

For willow you want to only feed the tips of the branches - the soft bendy new growth from this year, otherwise the Salicin levels are likely to be quite high and the bark very bitter. Unless you know which species are lower in Salicins... you can feed larger chunkier branches.
Blackberry is basically bramble....everywhere and covered in berries at the moment so easily identifiable :) Leaves can be prickly too but buns seem to manage, just remove the larger thorns on the leaves first. Have a look for Hazel too.....they have nuts on them at this time of year so again stand out and grow in many hedgerows....large veined rounded furry leaves:
http://www.hedgelink.org.uk/images/photolibrary%20downloads/Wildlife/Berries,%20nuts,%20keys%20and%20fruits/hedgelink%20download%20-%20Hazel%20leaves%20and%20nut,%202008,%20Rob%20Wol ton.jpg
You can feed branches and leaves :D

I'd recommend the following book for identifying the basic bunny safe weeds:
http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=38&products_id=249
The Greenfoods for Rabbits and Cavvies is good too....just not good pics!
Failing that....raid a Cider farm in Somerset! :lol: That's where i'm from originally :wave:

poppymoon
20-08-2009, 09:07 AM
For willow you want to only feed the tips of the branches - the soft bendy new growth from this year, otherwise the Salicin levels are likely to be quite high and the bark very bitter. Unless you know which species are lower in Salicins... you can feed larger chunkier branches.
Blackberry is basically bramble....everywhere and covered in berries at the moment so easily identifiable :) Leaves can be prickly too but buns seem to manage, just remove the larger thorns on the leaves first. Have a look for Hazel too.....they have nuts on them at this time of year so again stand out and grow in many hedgerows....large veined rounded furry leaves:
http://www.hedgelink.org.uk/images/photolibrary%20downloads/Wildlife/Berries,%20nuts,%20keys%20and%20fruits/hedgelink%20download%20-%20Hazel%20leaves%20and%20nut,%202008,%20Rob%20Wol ton.jpg
You can feed branches and leaves :D

I'd recommend the following book for identifying the basic bunny safe weeds:
http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=38&products_id=249
The Greenfoods for Rabbits and Cavvies is good too....just not good pics!
Failing that....raid a Cider farm in Somerset! :lol: That's where i'm from originally :wave:

i'll have a look on amazon for a weed book:)

i mentioned somerset as my OH is a somerset lad and pops down most weekends to see his family:D