Argh look at all this calcium! U/D found it I think!

Yes here I am stressing again :roll: :lol:

apache has suddenly started weeing out all this calcium despite having the same diet as ever :? i can literally scoop it up with a spoon. any ideas?

It doesnt seem to bother him...just a bit mystified as to why it would happen. :?

In a warped kind of way it's a good sign because it shows that his body's mechanisms for getting rid of excess calcium are working - but it is also a warning sign that there may be too much calcium in his diet. Buns bodies do change throughout their lives so it may well be that what was always fine previously, is now too 'rich' for him. I would start cutting down the high calcium foods in his diet and substituting them with ones with a lower content. Although he is excreting it, the more calcium he ingests, the more likely it is that he will develop kidney/bladder crystals/stones.

I've cut out all veg temporarily and I'm going to reintroduce it one type at a time to see what he can tolerate without widdling tippex :shock:

I've never fed high calcium veg anyway though unless i'm doing so without realising it - he gets celery, rocket, culinary herbs like lemon balm, thyme and sage, but a variety of wild/garden foods too which I don't know the calcium content of so maybe they're the culprit.

What would be the symptoms if a bun *did* develop bladder stones or similar?

thanks for the help x

It often helps to increase their fluid intake - giving them veg wet. A FEW Dandelion leaves make them wee more, (the wee is a bit darker) as does 1 small frond of chervil/cowparsley twice daily. This helped us a lot but we have to be careful cos he gets tummy probs too. Does Apache drink well?

The log term prob is usually bladder sludge rather than stones - bladder fills up with the chalky stuff. The rabbit goes into weeing position, strains & nothing happens! or does lots of small wees.

He's not a huge drinker to be honest. He goes on the lawn fairly often so he gets some moisture from the grass but he doesn't go through a lot of water from his bowl.

clutterydrawer said:

He's not a huge drinker to be honest. He goes on the lawn fairly often so he gets some moisture from the grass but he doesn't go through a lot of water from his bowl.

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If you can get more fluid in + the dandelions/ cowparsley (not to get the poops like bricks :shock I bet the problem will resolve itself. His royal fussy highness gets tepid cooled boiled water 5 times daily here, but there's no calcium any more. There must be an easier way!

this is what my rabbit miffy was like, i now successfully diet control it. He is only allowed low calcium foods such as cauliflower, sprouts, carrots, romaine, baby corn, hedgerow herbs, hay etc, also watch what dry food you feed them, supa rabbit xl isnt too bad but some are.
I used to feed him an awful lot of curly kale which is very high calcium, that and spring greens/parsley
Just due to changing his diet I have so far managed to beat it. I was given a really good list of high mid and low calcium foods, i am sure someone did one on here too.

Might be worth looking at the hays you are feeding too, as some are higher in calcium than others. Alfalfa hay and readigrass are two that spring to mind as being high in calcium.

Good calcium sources are chinese cabbage, watercress, kale, dandelions, parsley and spinach - rabbits with urinary sludge/stones and rabbits fed a commercial pellet should have very limited amounts of these foods to avoid excess calcium.
I think Rocket is a good calcium source as well so I would restrict this one.

Normal cabbage, radish tops, carrots, cauliflower, brussels etc are lower sources and can be fed more freely.
It is also suggested that a rabbit producing excess calcium - bladder sludge - should be moved over to a hay and veg diet and away from commercial pellets. I'm afraid it's the commercial pellets that are the 'highest' sources of calcium in most cases.

i did a lot of reading up on this calcium stuff a few months ago, i finally came to the conclusion that the veg on the list of high calcium foods isnt as bad as the pellets we feed (the levels quoted on the packaging is dry weights so when feeding raw veg the water content of the veg reduces the calcium levels a small amount anyhows).

should my pair ever get issues i would get rid of pellets before i started messing about with the veg i feed

donnamt said:

should my pair ever get issues i would get rid of pellets before i started messing about with the veg i feed

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:thumb:

I've got a ten year old bun who has had calcium issues since he was about 3. He's on science selective pellets as they're lower in calcium, but the best are the ones that are pressed timothy grass.

Its also important to get the right hay, some are very high in calcium such as Alfafa. I only feed him Timothy Hay as this is very low in calcium, I avoid meadow hay cos of the flowers other wild plants in it that you can't be sure of. So I'd definitely avoid the wild plants you're feeding. Be careful of some herbs too.

As for veg, chose low calcium AND low oxalates. For example carrots are ok calcium wise but dreadful for oxalates. The best veg that are low in calcium and oxalates are peas (shelled), fresh coriander, peppers, and fruit. I know fruit is high in sugar so he just gets small pieces. Lately he's been eating bits of green beans too which aren't great but his wee looks fine. I can send you copies of my lists if you want them or I think I've posted them in here in the past.

The may think the picture you posted looks bads, its along way off from worrying too much - start changing your buns diet and keep an eye on the wee. When Charlie was at his worst his wee was like tooth paste.

Charlie has filtered water - it has less minerals in and this hels to prevent the sludge. He also has cystaid sprinkled on his food, this is basically glucosamine and helps to rebuild any damage the sludge is causing in his bladder. Its also very good for joints and I swear this is why he still runs around even though he's 10.

prettylupin said:

:thumb:

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I disagree, take out the high calcium and high oxalate veg immediately, and then start thinking about the pellets. If you get rid of the oxalates it doesn't matter if your bun is having a bit too much calcium. The sludge is calcium oxalate, the bun needs an excess of both to produce it but they still need enough calcium for their bones/teeth.

BevBunny said:

I disagree, take out the high calcium and high oxalate veg immediately, and then start thinking about the pellets. If you get rid of the oxalates it doesn't matter if your bun is having a bit too much calcium. The sludge is calcium oxalate, the bun needs an excess of both to produce it but they still need enough calcium for their bones/teeth.

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Urinary sludge tends to be calcium carbonate. Calcium oxalates can also form - there are many combinations that dietary calcium can produce. The current literature all suggests that to reduce excess calcium that bunny excretes and can contribute to sludge and stones reducing/restricting or omitting pellets is the sensible option.
I personally feel that if you do feed pellets then you should control the amount of high calcium veg.
Calcium IS important for bones and teeth but you can find adequate levels from vegetables. My buns receive no pellets and have no long-term problems from a lack of dietary calcium.

Clutterydrawer you might find these links helpful:
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/bladder-disease.html
This is the best link below:
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=2423
So Thumps's suggestion of increasing water intake seems to be v. important! But that's because Thumps knows what she is talking about :wave:

prettylupin said:

Urinary sludge tends to be calcium carbonate. Calcium oxalates can also form - there are many combinations that dietary calcium can produce. The current literature all suggests that to reduce excess calcium that bunny excretes and can contribute to sludge and stones reducing/restricting or omitting pellets is the sensible option.
I personally feel that if you do feed pellets then you should control the amount of high calcium veg.
Calcium IS important for bones and teeth but you can find adequate levels from vegetables. My buns receive no pellets and have no long-term problems from a lack of dietary calcium.

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Thats interesting, I read that the sludge was mostly calcium oxalates, and especially noted in the composition of kidneys stones that had been removed from affected rabbits (I have the research paper somewhere). This is the same for human kidney stones, but perhaps I've been mislead.

I agree that buns can live happily without pellets but it depends on the bun - unfortunately my calcium intolerant bun can't keep weight on if he doesn't have pellets, and if I give him more veg he gets a pooey bum! Nothing is ever easy with bunnies! The main thing is that buns diets are changed gradually where possible.

BevBunny said:

Thats interesting, I read that the sludge was mostly calcium oxalates, and especially noted in the composition of kidneys stones that had been removed from affected rabbits (I have the research paper somewhere). This is the same for human kidney stones, but perhaps I've been mislead.

I agree that buns can live happily without pellets but it depends on the bun - unfortunately my calcium intolerant bun can't keep weight on if he doesn't have pellets, and if I give him more veg he gets a pooey bum! Nothing is ever easy with bunnies! The main thing is that buns diets are changed gradually where possible.

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Stones and sludge tend to have different compositions I think, and there are many calcium crystal types that can form. I agree that veg high in Oxalates can cause acute renal failure in rabbits apparently. On top of this human renal function is very different to rabbits. In fact rabbits process calcium differently to almost all other mammals....I believe it is still not fully understood? There are many similarities between us and buns....but even more differences. I did human medicine and only the basics helps me understand my complicated bunnies :lol:
I suppose it depends on how heavy your bun is? Does he go underweight with removal of pellets? Most buns will lose weight going to a hay veg diet but they should be able to maintain their weight once they reach correct weight, unless something else is wrong? I suppose it is possible that an imbalanced caecum (pooey bum) means that he will not be reingesting nutrients correctly in this way and this can contribute to weight loss. I'm just hypothesising here but perhaps if you get the caecum in balance and achieve correct corophagy then your bun might be able to maintain weight on a diet of restricted or no pellets better? But every bun is different I know. I agree all dietary changes MUST be made slowly - even removal of pellets unless drastic action is needed (severe caecal dysbiosis). I'm not suggesting people don't feed pellets at all - this diet takes time and money and should be carefully thought out first - but in my experience it can work very well for certain health issues like excess caecotrophs, dental issues and excess calcium. Everyone should check with their vet first though

Didn't realise he was 10!!! In that case....as an elderly bun I expect maintaining weight is very hard for you to acheive - I wouldn't cut out or cut down his pellets in this case.

A bit of an aside, but....

I notice much more sudge in my buns wee when they've eaten dried grass (readigrass). I now limit it to once or twice a week as a treat.

abbymarysmokey said:

A bit of an aside, but....

I notice much more sudge in my buns wee when they've eaten dried grass (readigrass). I now limit it to once or twice a week as a treat.

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I think readigrass is very dehydrated...I too feed it cos they love it, but like you just once a week as a treat.