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Update - hypomotility problem/feed probably co incidence

T

thumps_

Wise Old Thumper
We've a long story of gut probs.
Please be gentle on me re. hay. I've done everything possible to every brand, & can only get a modest intake of hay with "OXBOW orchard grass HAY", from USA. (Costs a fortune). We make up high fiber with safe tree leaves & twigs in summer & X fingers over winter.
The large lawn is often suddenly "off the menu" cos of severe frequent sewer flooding.
Needs pellets to maintain weight & for vit D3 etc cos he's a house bun.
We'd just got all stable with dentals, worked out major risk factors for gut hypomotility. Couldn't get the usual Burgess rabbit super excel, on Mon. I've a fair bit left so started 25% - 75% mix with the new "Burgess excell tasty nuggets."
He's eating but less than normal, so fewer poops - not unduely small or misshapen or smelly (like dysbiosis), not rumbling, no uneaten caecs. He's just miserable. I know him like the back of my hand now. His tummy is playing up. We were doing fine until the change of feed.
It's hot, which is an additional stress factor - but he's on a cool concrete floor indoors & ears are staying cool. I know he wouldn't be pelting round in this weather, but he shouldn't be off his food to this extent.
Had his last dental a month ago, fortunate to have a top vet - should be OK.
Advice greatly valued.
 
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Can't help with pellets....which makes me look silly for answering your post :oops: but I was just wondering if you had tried the Burns Green oat or organic mountain hay? I expect you have! It's just it goes down so well here alongside their normal hay and especially when they're a bit off colour:)
 
thumps_ said:
Thanks so much for the fast reply - no - where can i get them?
Click to expand...

I'm sure you can get it off hay experts. They make a sample pack too so you don't have to buy a big bag to see if your bun likes it.
Good independant pet shops stock it too sometimes, and The Range does too.
It's quite a bit more expensive than Excel though so I will warn you, but bunnies love it :)
 
i dont know if youve been on there but...

www.pamperedpiggies.co.uk do a sample thing of different hays for £3.99. and she also does science selective samples too :)

ive had many holiday boarder bunnies come here with tummy probs and ive recommended science selective and its helped alot.

x
 
Thank you all so much. Just back after a dash round - & got some science selective to try, + peppermint tea & gripe water!
Apparently Burgess have only changed label & packaging so it's the same stuff.
Don't like the idea of soya products in the Burgess (soya protein gives me really bad gut cramps.) That's interesting thinking about it cos it doesn't give every human gut cramps!

So it seems to be Thumper's tummy again! goodness knows why.
I'll have a try of gp hays. "Thumper likes it green!" - well - most of the time.

I can't thank you all enough for your thoughtful advice. It's a great comfort to me to have the support of your experience behind us.
 
Hi
my lot go nuts for green oat hay and also brome hay (its darker and smells really strong). What hay have you tried? If you have only tried petshop bags then try a bale from a horse feed shop or farm.. i get mine locally for about £3 a bale which is really good value and it smells lovely and they all love it.
Also i give mine dried grass - I use Just Grass which my lot love too
The Hay Experts sell all sorts of hay and do a sample selection if you want to give some a go... i buy alot in one go to save on postage rather than smaller orders... hope that helps
Oh and i feed mine on allen and page natural pellets which is really high in fibre.. it took them a while to get used to them but now they go nuts for them now
 
update - we have hypomotility - any advice please

Thank you Dideen. It's a case of what hay haven't we tried over the last 3 years! He does eat the Oxbow. I've tried horse hays & "farmers hay" picking out buttercup & dock stalks. My policy has been to cram in fiber, & cut out all starch & sugar sources eg apple/ carrot treats, to maintain hind gut motility & prevent dysbiosis. Try to identify & reduce any contributing stress, recognize symptoms early, & adjust diet, leaving gut motility drugs in short courses, as a last resort but getting on top of the situation before he gets ileus.

Although unorthodox, the current year's growth of Hawthorn, was tried as a "leafy green veg" from 80 years ago - hence local term "bread & cheese" for young leaves. It was also noticed that when myxi was 1st. introduced a lot of grassy rabbit grazed "downland" reverted to scrub land. I felt this indicated that young hawthorn saplings constituted part of the "wildie" diet. it has proven very helpful. About 98% of his diet is high fiber.

His treats are traditional hedgerow plants - but I cut back on dandelion & cow parsley, in summer because they are also diuretics.

Currently getting some uneaten caecotrophs - at the same time as waste poops. Waste poops normal shape, reasonable size, but getting less separation of waste fiber. Decided to give 2 doses of Zantac 12 hours apart.
 
Possible precipitants - had building work done late Saturday. Frightened of sudden loud noises since ear drum damage from council machinery about 3 weeks ago. Followed by heat. That's all it takes with us!
 
wow you have certainly done alot of research!! Interesting about the hawthorn. I hope he's back to normal soon and nothing else stresses him out ;)
 
thumps_ said:
Thank you Dideen. It's a case of what hay haven't we tried over the last 3 years! He does eat the Oxbow. I've tried horse hays & "farmers hay" picking out buttercup & dock stalks. My policy has been to cram in fiber, & cut out all starch & sugar sources eg apple/ carrot treats, to maintain hind gut motility & prevent dysbiosis. Try to identify & reduce any contributing stress, recognize symptoms early, & adjust diet, leaving gut motility drugs in short courses, as a last resort but getting on top of the situation before he gets ileus.

Although unorthodox, the current year's growth of Hawthorn, was tried as a "leafy green veg" from 80 years ago - hence local term "bread & cheese" for young leaves. It was also noticed that when myxi was 1st. introduced a lot of grassy rabbit grazed "downland" reverted to scrub land. I felt this indicated that young hawthorn saplings constituted part of the "wildie" diet. it has proven very helpful. About 98% of his diet is high fiber.

His treats are traditional hedgerow plants - but I cut back on dandelion & cow parsley, in summer because they are also diuretics.

Currently getting some uneaten caecotrophs - at the same time as waste poops. Waste poops normal shape, reasonable size, but getting less separation of waste fiber. Decided to give 2 doses of Zantac 12 hours apart.
Click to expand...


Well you can't do much more than that! :) Does he eat grass instead? I should think a diet like you describe above, provided it has grass in it instead of the hay which he doesn't eat much of should be ok you know, I know some wild rabbits have access to hay, but a lot manage on grass, hedgerow plants and bark etc. I would personally try removing the pellets all together if you feel able to, we did and it cleared up those excess caecotrophs, took between 6wks-3months without pellets for the last odd one to go, but rarely ever get one now, certainly not from our boy bun. Our girl has a few issues with certain veg and i'm inclined to get a bit carried away with my home grown cabbages :oops: :lol:
I think as long as he eats some hay, definitely some grass and you continue with this wild diet it would be ok to stop the pellets. Reducing them just didn't work for my buns and I have to say that my stasis/bloat bunny rarely gets it anymore (once or twice a year now? *frantically touches wood*!!) - like yours it is stress triggered with him, but I found the dysbiosis just made him more susceptible. Good luck:D
 
Thank you for your suggestions.
We've a bit of a nightmare situation. A recent new housing estate on our old sewer system overloads it when it rains heavily. A 100'x45' garden is covered by dilute sewage. It's dilute from an adult human view point, but not pets & children. He certainly eats some grass daily (1hr. morning & evening supervised run in the garden), but the grass supply isn't secure as a staple. Not allowed out for 2/52 after a flood. We all know that hand cutting has to be done x2 per day minimum cos of mould growth (risk of liver toxins) in this weather. It's kind of difficult to get grass dogs ain't walked on etc. round here!

The uneaten Caecs have only been over the last 2 days. I agree totally that it's usually a diet too high in nutrient, & to cut back on synthetics - but we've gone over 6 months without uneaten caecs until now. He tends to lose weight without some supplement. But I'll try to cut it back a bit. His caec / waste rhythm is lousy! Waste poops are down by 1/2 today so not eating enough. Let's hope the Zantac kicks in soon.

It's as if his hind gut slows down a bit - so he doesn't feel so hungry, eats less, so gut slows down more - until we get into an impossible situation. Beginning to wonder if the heat is a bigger factor than I had realised now, although his ears aren't hot. Wildies don't have this marked temp. variation cos they can go underground.

Wish some one would make me a bunny cool house. Not up to it myself now!
 
Well I'm tentatively really impressed. Poops started rolling out - much better "quality", last night & he started chomping away. No uneaten caecs at all! Only needed 1 dose of zantac! I've a much brighter, happier bun. :D

Wonder if any one else has this pattern of hind gut slowing down - less food intake - slows down more? & what your experience is?

[ps It RAINED this morning, :censored: sewer flooded, under the floor again. Got a Thames water engineer out in under 1 hour :shock: :shock: :shock: Checked where I'd flooded in under 1min, spent rest of time playing with Thumper!!! Thumper's infinitely more effective than "damsel in distress act" :lol:]
 
thumps_ said:
Well I'm tentatively really impressed. Poops started rolling out - much better "quality", last night & he started chomping away. No uneaten caecs at all! Only needed 1 dose of zantac! I've a much brighter, happier bun. :D

Wonder if any one else has this pattern of hind gut slowing down - less food intake - slows down more? & what your experience is?

[ps It RAINED this morning, :censored: sewer flooded, under the floor again. Got a Thames water engineer out in under 1 hour :shock: :shock: :shock: Checked where I'd flooded in under 1min, spent rest of time playing with Thumper!!! Thumper's infinitely more effective than "damsel in distress act"
:lol:]
Click to expand...

That's hilarious! :lol: How to pull a water engineer! :lol: How awful though to be flooded by sewage! I hope your water supply to drink is ok? Otherwise i'd be pretty worried about Giardiasis for yourself!! Nasty parasite:(
I'm afraid i've no experience of this hindgut slowing in isolation. My stasis/bloat bun is literally still eating even when he has bloat until the second it goes critical where he suddenly instantly stops and is in pain, he even passes droppings after this point sometimes before everything instantly shuts down. It takes a lot to stop him eating, all he does is eat, eat, eat all day and night long, he barely sleeps, just eats! He's terribly food driven though :D
I think the ileus and loss of appetite can be closely linked though, I wonder if pain is a factor with your bun perhaps? Glad the zantac works :)
I think buns rely heavily on digestion and fermentation in the caecum for stimulating the metabolism though, like horses, hence the sudden body temp drop when in stasis, so i'm not suprised really it all slows down. Nino gets cold very quickly, I think he needs to eat constantly to keep his metabolism going aside from the gut motility issues. I think it's a heavily controlled feedback loop and anything that breaks the cycle has a negative effect. Ok i'm rambling now!! I hope you figure out how to manage your buns condition, we did, every bun has their own thing that works. We find with ours that we can stop an episode of bloat progressing by catching it early with pain relief, and half an hour later he's back on track and eating again. Only you know your bunny inside out :D
 
I hope Thumps tum is doing a bit better today. I have found Zantac to be more helpful than Metoclopromide in many cases.
I use it for myself as I have had two Gastric Ulcers. I can say for certain that it definately speeds up my gut motility................................:shock:
 
Thank you so much for your comments & advice.
He's a bit under the weather today but not poorly. The flood yesterday has had a good effect!!! As water evaporates from the underfloor void, the floor remains deliciously cool as temperatures soar. The air at floor level is so cool too. :lol::lol::lol: He's ensconced himself in the coolest place. I may put some water in there on purpose if the heat wave materializes!!
Pretty Lupin, I find it helpful when you "ramble on". I love Thumper to pieces, he's had an enormous positive impact on my life, cos I'm quite poorly now. He's also had a big impact on other peoples lives too! We've struggled with this prob for almost 4 years. I keep thinking that a bun's guts can't just stop working for no reason. We don't get the situation of very sudden distention/ bloat, or temp. drop. This is why I often wish that there were more "names" for the different symptom complexes rather than just "stasis". I've got the basics about how rabbit prox. colon & caecum should work - "wow that's clever!", & concentrated mainly on diet. Now wondering about any link with rabbit increasing the excretion of porphorins when stressed? Rabbits aren't humans Am I totally barking up the wrong tree to wonder about stress - porphorins - abdo pain (like 1 variety of human porphyria?) Don't even know why rabbits increase porphorin excretion when stressed.
Jane, you're as supportive & to the point as always. Thank you. Zantac reduces the acidity in human stomachs (H2 blocker). I don't know about bunnies. Rabbits have a very high gastric acidity normally, I just presumed (don't know) that this helped to kill off any dangerous bacteria in the stomach before they got to the caecum to cause a nasty dysbiosis. I am so grateful for Zantac when necessary. It definitely improves lower gut motility in rabbits. I agree with you about metaclopramide, (Maxolon) it increases motility at the top end of the gut. Thumper's problem is reduced movement at the "lower end" of the gut. Can't expect Maxolon to have much effect on lower gut probs! What do you think about "it all"?

Sorry I'm being "high brow" in one sense. There are people on this forum with massive experience of buns, vetinary experience, the lot. I've been trying to thrash out this prob on my own, not only for Thumps but for other buns too. My goodness would I like some help!!
 
thumps_ said:
Thank you so much for your comments & advice.
He's a bit under the weather today but not poorly. The flood yesterday has had a good effect!!! As water evaporates from the underfloor void, the floor remains deliciously cool as temperatures soar. The air at floor level is so cool too. :lol::lol::lol: He's ensconced himself in the coolest place. I may put some water in there on purpose if the heat wave materializes!!
Pretty Lupin, I find it helpful when you "ramble on". I love Thumper to pieces, he's had an enormous positive impact on my life, cos I'm quite poorly now. He's also had a big impact on other peoples lives too! We've struggled with this prob for almost 4 years. I keep thinking that a bun's guts can't just stop working for no reason. We don't get the situation of very sudden distention/ bloat, or temp. drop. This is why I often wish that there were more "names" for the different symptom complexes rather than just "stasis". I've got the basics about how rabbit prox. colon & caecum should work - "wow that's clever!", & concentrated mainly on diet. Now wondering about any link with rabbit increasing the excretion of porphorins when stressed? Rabbits aren't humans Am I totally barking up the wrong tree to wonder about stress - porphorins - abdo pain (like 1 variety of human porphyria?) Don't even know why rabbits increase porphorin excretion when stressed.
Jane, you're as supportive & to the point as always. Thank you. Zantac reduces the acidity in human stomachs (H2 blocker). I don't know about bunnies. Rabbits have a very high gastric acidity normally, I just presumed (don't know) that this helped to kill off any dangerous bacteria in the stomach before they got to the caecum to cause a nasty dysbiosis. I am so grateful for Zantac when necessary. It definitely improves lower gut motility in rabbits. I agree with you about metaclopramide, (Maxolon) it increases motility at the top end of the gut. Thumper's problem is reduced movement at the "lower end" of the gut. Can't expect Maxolon to have much effect on lower gut probs! What do you think about "it all"?

Sorry I'm being "high brow" in one sense. There are people on this forum with massive experience of buns, vetinary experience, the lot. I've been trying to thrash out this prob on my own, not only for Thumps but for other buns too. My goodness would I like some help!!
Click to expand...

Stress in rabbits causes release of catecholamines such as adrenaline, it's a hormone and neurotransmitter. Adrenaline has the effect of controlling the 'flight or fight' response in reaction to stress/danger - in which sense it gears up the body ready for an emergency, in doing so it shuts off/shuts down blood supply and neuro supply to the less important parts of the body required for flight or fight. It works on the sympathetic part of the autonomic nervous system, so release of adrenalne increases cardiac output and blood pressure. It also increases blood flow to the heart, liver and skeletal muscles (to be able to run away fast!) The muscle of the gastrointestinal system is smooth muscle and therefore parasympathetic (I think - god Medicine was a long time ago!) and therefore not stimulated, because it is less important for the flight/fight response. Adrenaline acts on the receptors on blood vessels to the lungs/heart dilating them to get more blood to the important parts. Less blood flow and inhibition of smooth muscle e.g. gut means the guts slow down! OMG I hope there's not a vet or doctor reading this as my memory is shocking!! :shock::lol: It's way more complicated than that as there is a huge feedback loop involved etc with catecholamines, but I can't remember ANY of that stuff :( And of course bunnies may have totally different hormones and neurotransmitters but I know that they release catecholamines as a stress response like us :)
I too have used zantac successfully but I tend to use both together on advice of our vet to get the whole tract mobilised. When Poppy had her impaction last month it was hindgut and so the Zantac I think was very helfpul in this instance.
As an aside! For humans I recommend Omeprazole/Esomeprazole or Tagamet as an effective proton pump inhibitor! :D:lol:
p.s. I hope Thumps gets well soon!! :D I find the best thing is hay, hay and more hay :D
 
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