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Congenital Agangliosis

Snowberry

Wise Old Thumper
Has anyone heard of or had a bun with Congenital Agangliosis ? Its also known as cow pile syndrome.

I have been doing some reading and found this in "When a rabbit needs special care" by Lucile Moore today and some of it matches Snowdrops symptoms.

The book says;

"Congenital agangliosis, also know as “megacolon” or “cow pile syndrome” (CPS) is a hereditary disorder of the gastrointestinal tract found in some rabbits with the “English Spot” or En En color gene. These rabbits are generally white with dark black or brown rings around their eyes and black or brown spots on their back."

"Congenital agangliosis is believed to be caused by an improper development or malfunction of the colon and/or cecum. Rabbits with this disorder have trouble extracting essential nutrients from food, may not produce cecotropes, and frequently have difficulty maintaining weight. Although it is generally thought that rabbits with this syndrome have trouble absorbing and processing nutrients from food, each individual case is unique.

The symptoms of this disorder include big, misshapen, soft fecal pellets, frequently covered with mucus, and a drippy bottom alternating with long, painful bouts of GI slowdown."

Although Snowdrop is not in Stasis now she was when we first got her. She has had large mishaped poos which are often soft but we have not seen any mucus. She also has a drippy bottom at the minute.

Helpful comments only please- if you do not agree with the treatment of my bun then please keep it to yourself.
 
I agree your bunny needs treatment. I would however get a work up done on your rabbit, eg Bloods/xrays/ultrasonography before trying to diagnose obscure conditions. Im not saying your rabbit doesnt have this condition, Im simply stating that it would be a good idea to make sure nothing else is going on first
Goodluck
 
My vet does not feel confident in treating Snowdrop and is referring her to a specialist this week. We will obviously have any tests necessary done but would rather she did not have a GA.

You call this an obscure condition- am im reading rightly that you do not believe it exists? I have no rabbit knowledge other than what I have read in various books and so welcome all opinions!
 
Im not saying it doesnt exist. Documented cases are rare. There are many other potential issues that could cause the symptoms you are seeing. Ultimately the only way to diagnose this condition would be to biopsy the intestines- a procedure fraught with potential complications and obviously requiring an anaesthetic. not something to rush into. Safer to rule out other conditions first. Its good thet you are going for a proper work up though
goodluck
 
Im not saying it doesnt exist. Documented cases are rare. There are many other potential issues that could cause the symptoms you are seeing. Ultimately the only way to diagnose this condition would be to biopsy the intestines- a procedure fraught with potential complications and obviously requiring an anaesthetic. not something to rush into. Safer to rule out other conditions first. Its good thet you are going for a proper work up though
goodluck

I will definately not be having her opened up at all. I have requested a conscious xray when the time comes and do not want her operated on unless it is to save her life.

What other conditions would have symptoms of abnormal shaped faeces (usually large, moist and rugby ball shaped) and now bouts of fluid being passed with faeces?
 
I will definately not be having her opened up at all. I have requested a conscious xray when the time comes and do not want her operated on unless it is to save her life.

What other conditions would have symptoms of abnormal shaped faeces (usually large, moist and rugby ball shaped) and now bouts of fluid being passed with faeces?

This sounds very similar to a problem my Austin had. We think it was due to food allegies. Have you tried cutting out all pellets and veg? We also started to have great success with twice daily fibreplex :)

I know inflammation of the intestines can also cause similar problems and others have had success with Salazopyrin medicine. Unfortunately this didn't help Austin.


We lost Austin under a rouine GA not related to his condition, but because of it we had a post mortum done and everything came back clear which is why we still think it was food allergies :?
 
Im sorry, I will answer your question but ive got to dive out now. If you can hang on till tomorrow, Ill sort you a list of differentials I would be considering :)
 
This sounds very similar to a problem my Austin had. We think it was due to food allegies. Have you tried cutting out all pellets and veg? We also started to have great success with twice daily fibreplex :)

I know inflammation of the intestines can also cause similar problems and others have had success with Salazopyrin medicine. Unfortunately this didn't help Austin.


We lost Austin under a rouine GA not related to his condition, but because of it we had a post mortum done and everything came back clear which is why we still think it was food allergies :?

I have cut out all veg which hasnt had any effect. I am reluctant to cut out pellets as she seems so hungry all the time at the minute. I will obviously mention what you have said to my vet and if she thinks its a possibility I will give it a go.

I am very nervous about her having a GA, especially after losing Graham so will be asking for conscious examinations where-ever possible. She would remain still enough for xrays to be done.
 
Congenital agangliosis is indeed a very rarely diagnosed condition and as rodneyvet says there are many other, much more common, problems that can cause these symptoms so I wouldn't be considering this high on a list of differentials at the moment. Abnormal caecal motility is the most common cause of intermittent abnormal/soft faeces so further tests to see what caecal function is like is a likely next step so imaging of some kind is likely to be needed.
I would suggest ultrasound ahead of Xrays if you are not willing to have her anaesthetised/sedated. Ultrasound will need less restraint and will be less stressful for her and conscious Xrays prevent good positioning so the information gained will be reduced. I wouldn't rule out completely any form of sedation/anaesthetic as some diagnostics will need this and the benefits of finding out what's going on can outweigh the relatively small risk of the sedation.
Try not to worry too much and let us know what you referral vet finds - they will be the best ones to advise you as they will have the full history and be able to examine her.
Marie
 
We think it was the pellets that were the problem as it is easier to have an allergy to manufactured food than more natural stuff such as veg. Unfortunately we never got the chance to wean him of pellets completely as we lost him.

He had faecal samples and urine samples come back clear, also blood and x-rays all clear :?

It was all very baffling, we really thought a PM would give us the answers but like I say that came back clear to.

He was refered to francis Hardcourt Brown and she too had no new advice except for a very high fibre diet.

Austin was continually hungry too, but thankfully he was happy to eat vast quatities of hay.

I would discuss the long term use of fibreplex and possible food allergies with your vet. Even if it doesn't work it wont hurt him to try and it would be a cheap and non invasive treatment :)
 
We have had a couple of buns with this, most noticably our Rosebud - she could not eat SS and anything high in fibre as this made her worse. She was on mix and veggies but we didn't overdo the veggies - she got much better on that diet:D
 
I am not sure the specialist will get to examine her as they are in Bristol which is a 6 hour round trip form here- something I would be reluctant to do with a bunny who is prone to stress unless there was no other option.

More than likely my vet will be carrying out the tests and sending the results to the specialist to be analysed. This is why I would be so nervous about a GA as they lost my last bunny whilst carrying out an xray.
 
We think it was the pellets that were the problem as it is easier to have an allergy to manufactured food than more natural stuff such as veg. Unfortunately we never got the chance to wean him of pellets completely as we lost him.

He had faecal samples and urine samples come back clear, also blood and x-rays all clear :?

It was all very baffling, we really thought a PM would give us the answers but like I say that came back clear to.

He was refered to francis Hardcourt Brown and she too had no new advice except for a very high fibre diet.

Austin was continually hungry too, but thankfully he was happy to eat vast quatities of hay.

I would discuss the long term use of fibreplex and possible food allergies with your vet. Even if it doesn't work it wont hurt him to try and it would be a cheap and non invasive treatment :)

She has been on fibreplex for the past week with not much improvement. I havent seen any fluid with her faeces today and she has passed some drier larger poos during the day.

She will eat hay so after checking with the vets I might try total hay only for a while. I did try it last week but only did it for 2 days as she seemed to be starving.
 
I am not sure the specialist will get to examine her as they are in Bristol which is a 6 hour round trip form here- something I would be reluctant to do with a bunny who is prone to stress unless there was no other option.

More than likely my vet will be carrying out the tests and sending the results to the specialist to be analysed. This is why I would be so nervous about a GA as they lost my last bunny whilst carrying out an xray.
I think you may get less information from only sending results as they will only be working on what your vet already knows, or examining radiographs they have taken, and not noticing finer points on examination that they are trained to do. Bristol are very good and very approachable so if there is any way you could get there then it would be ideal. They are also much more experienced than standard vets with rabbit anaesthesia so could potentially acheive more with less risk to your bun. If you can't get there perhaps ask them if they can recommend anyone closer to you who could help?
 
Erin is on a hay only diet for other reasons, but she has a great variety of hays and dried herbs. Its actually good fun shopping around for her trying to find new things :) She does the most wonderful poos and is a very lively bunny :)
 
I think you may get less information from only sending results as they will only be working on what your vet already knows, or examining radiographs they have taken, and not noticing finer points on examination that they are trained to do. Bristol are very good and very approachable so if there is any way you could get there then it would be ideal. They are also much more experienced than standard vets with rabbit anaesthesia so could potentially acheive more with less risk to your bun. If you can't get there perhaps ask them if they can recommend anyone closer to you who could help?

I dont mind driving it at all if she does need to go- but it cant be for at least 3 weeks when I am off work as there is no way they would let me have a day off to take a rabbit to a vet. Unless they work Saturdays which I doubt.
 
I dont mind driving it at all if she does need to go- but it cant be for at least 3 weeks when I am off work as there is no way they would let me have a day off to take a rabbit to a vet. Unless they work Saturdays which I doubt.

You could catch a cold though........!;)
I really think you need answers, before you make yourself ill from the stress, and I do think it's best if they exeamine her in person xx
 
You could catch a cold though........!;)
I really think you need answers, before you make yourself ill from the stress, and I do think it's best if they exeamine her in person xx

Im a teacher so its not quite as simple as pulling a sicky- my classes would need covering and there is so much going on this term there is no way I would be able to do it. Im out of a week on a first aid course which i cant miss or I wouldnt get the certificate.
 
I agree with Hugo's there about the hay only diet. Both of our rescue buns arrived with quite pronounced caecal dysbiosis and our girl in particular was doing tremendous amounts of excess caecotrophs and malformed caecotrophs. We cut out all pellets but it took 3 months for her caecum to balance out and for the problem to clear up completely, we were able to reintroduce veggies after two weeks, even now she is sometimes prone to a tiny extra caecotroph if I overdo the starchy veg/fruit or particular veg that set her off. Our other bun took 6 weeks on the hay only diet for his to clear up. Two days just isn't long enough to assess whether it works or not so try giving it a go, what have you got to lose?
I realise this could be something more, some sort of inflammatory bowel disease but a change in diet might really help. I know it's hard when they look so hungry, you just have to find some yummy hays they really enjoy and a selection of dried herbs, and remember that buns are designed to eat this stuff.....a high fibre diet in my mind is really the best way to reestablish the correct caecal flora. I hope the diagnostics your vet is doing will help figure this out too:)
 
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