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Abscesses -- U/D Treatment Methods and Results (Post 11)

sidereus7

Mama Doe
This is fairly random, but I didn't know where else to look for this information.

One thing I've consistently read about rabbit abscesses is that they are so difficult to deal with because of the thick pus. It is said that rabbits lack a common enzyme in dogs/cats/humans that helps break down the pus into a more liquid form.

As some use papaya tablets for their enzymes to help break down fur, is it possible to inject that missing enzyme into the source of the abscess to liquefy it, thus allowing it to drain much more easily and quickly? Then, if the fingerlike projections are cleared quicker, they could be cleaned sooner, preventing regrowth in other areas.

Is it just craziness to inject an enzyme that isn't naturally occurring in a rabbit's body?

This has been another episode of Sara P, Wannabe MD. :roll:
 
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The key issue would be that enzymes are a group of different forms, not just 'an enzyme'.

The ones that are said to act on the mucus binding a trichobezoar together is bromelain or papain (papayazyme) but different enzymes act on different substances....for example the enzyme that breaks down fat is different to the one that will break down sugar.

I don't know if there is an enzyme that would specifically target the puss or bacteria causing an abcess capsule.
 
The key issue would be that enzymes are a group of different forms, not just 'an enzyme'.

The ones that are said to act on the mucus binding a trichobezoar together is bromelain or papain (papayazyme) but different enzymes act on different substances....for example the enzyme that breaks down fat is different to the one that will break down sugar.

I don't know if there is an enzyme that would specifically target the puss or bacteria causing an abscess capsule.

Yeah, I was assuming that the last line there was true. The articles seemed to suggest that this enzyme specifically acted on the pus, although I suppose I really can't be sure. Do you think this idea would be reasonable if this "enzyme" did act as a pus thinner-outer, and we could isolate such an enzyme?
 
As I understand it there are 2 other probs with rabbit abscesses. They make a thick fibrous wall around the abscess so abs can't get in, & if simply "drained" = cut open they heal over quickly before all the infection's been killed off. The final prob with bun abscesses is that they often seem to occur where there's very little tissue between skin & bone - so it's difficult to cut the "fibrous wall" out.

Problem with an enzyme is that it would have to be put into the abscess cavity regularly, & not "eat away" fragile healthy tissue growth.

The bromaine in pineapple, doesn't actually break down the keratin in fur balls. It improves gut motility. The probable reason why normal coated buns get probs with fur balls is that the gut has slowed down for some other reason.

Manuka honey is looking promising - has some antibacterial properties + helps to liquefy pus by drawing fluid into the cavity from surrounding tissues. Any reduction in swelling of the surrounding tissues, improves the blood supply, so abs. can get to the right place.
There are some dramatic claims being made for colloidial silver but i've no 1st. hand experience.

Sorry to be a wet blanket. Keep thinking on it though. If we don't keep thinking - we can't get anywhere!
 
As I understand it there are 2 other probs with rabbit abscesses. They make a thick fibrous wall around the abscess so abs can't get in, & if simply "drained" = cut open they heal over quickly before all the infection's been killed off. The final prob with bun abscesses is that they often seem to occur where there's very little tissue between skin & bone - so it's difficult to cut the "fibrous wall" out.

Problem with an enzyme is that it would have to be put into the abscess cavity regularly, & not "eat away" fragile healthy tissue growth.

The bromaine in pineapple, doesn't actually break down the keratin in fur balls. It improves gut motility. The probable reason why normal coated buns get probs with fur balls is that the gut has slowed down for some other reason.

Manuka honey is looking promising - has some antibacterial properties + helps to liquefy pus by drawing fluid into the cavity from surrounding tissues. Any reduction in swelling of the surrounding tissues, improves the blood supply, so abs. can get to the right place.
There are some dramatic claims being made for colloidial silver but i've no 1st. hand experience.

Sorry to be a wet blanket. Keep thinking on it though. If we don't keep thinking - we can't get anywhere!

Sarah sent me some Colloidal Silver which I am using on Lady Lydia's hocks (after checking with my Vet of course !) It seems to be helping.

I am also using it on a pesky spot on the end of my nose.........:roll:
 
Sarah sent me some Colloidal Silver which I am using on Lady Lydia's hocks (after checking with my Vet of course !) It seems to be helping.

I am also using it on a pesky spot on the end of my nose.........:roll:

Is Flamazine colloidal silver?
 
The problem I encountered with the use of manuka honey was that it encouraged rapid healing which meant it was difficult to keep the wound open and sterile due to the risk of trapping bacteria inside the cavity. I personally felt in Mack's case it was of little assistance but know other people have found it to be more beneficial.

The best treatment for Mack was definately the use of the Ornicure (doxycycline)/Intrasite mix, all the time we could pack it into the cavity it did keep the bacteria at bay. This was however specifically picked due to the bacteria we were targeting and wouldn't work for everybun.
 
The problem I encountered with the use of manuka honey was that it encouraged rapid healing which meant it was difficult to keep the wound open and sterile due to the risk of trapping bacteria inside the cavity. I personally felt in Mack's case it was of little assistance but know other people have found it to be more beneficial.

The best treatment for Mack was definately the use of the Ornicure (doxycycline)/Intrasite mix, all the time we could pack it into the cavity it did keep the bacteria at bay. This was however specifically picked due to the bacteria we were targeting and wouldn't work for everybun.

Thank you for bringing that to my notice.
I can understand how that treatment would be more effective in that situation. Honey works best where it has been possible to remove the wall of the abscess & cut away some skin over the abscess, (marsupialisation). It sort of converts the cavity to a shallow pouch rather than a deep sack with a slit opening. It also seems beneficial in MRSA in human "superficial infections".

I suppose we are discussing "post op" treatment. It all depends on what surgery was possible, & that in turn depends on the site of the abscess,& whether deep tissues e.g. bone are involved. We also have to consider how aggressive the infection is. I would be surprised whether we will ever get a "universal abscess treatment", rather it will always be a matter of good judgment, & also the procedure an experienced rabbit vet is most comfortable with.
Rabbit abscesses are a :censored: The other prob. is the tendency to spread in the blood stream to other places, lie dormant & rear its' head when the general immune system is under par! Specimens for culture before antibiotics are given are so important.

I think that Sidereus 7 was looking at the specific problem presented by the thick pus made by rabbits & if we could thin it down in any way.
 
This has all been very interesting to read. Talk about a meeting of the minds!

I just figured if the abscess could be drained easier, bacteria wouldn't have a place to thrive. They could fight the infection easier, and then we could allow the healing process to start quicker, using the manuka honey or something.

But as usual, it seems prevention is a lot easier. Regular dentals, immediate recognition/treatment of bite wounds, and keeping the rabbit's immune system up as best as possible. Such fragile creatures. :(

But please, feel free to hijack this thread and just talk about various treatment options, because I think it's really good that we all share our ideas and experiences on abscesses.

And "marsupialization" is a very cool word. :lol:
 
This has all been very interesting to read. Talk about a meeting of the minds!

I just figured if the abscess could be drained easier, bacteria wouldn't have a place to thrive. They could fight the infection easier, and then we could allow the healing process to start quicker, using the manuka honey or something.

But as usual, it seems prevention is a lot easier. Regular dentals, immediate recognition/treatment of bite wounds, and keeping the rabbit's immune system up as best as possible. Such fragile creatures. :(

But please, feel free to hijack this thread and just talk about various treatment options, because I think it's really good that we all share our ideas and experiences on abscesses.

And "marsupialization" is a very cool word. :lol:

I agree with you totally about draining the abscess more effectively for the same reason.

There's another reason - the pus takes up space,& increases the pressure on surrounding tissues. Also the normal response to infection is for the capillaries to leak out fluid & WBCs - swelling surrounding tissues. Blood can't get through so easily on both counts - less O2 - most of the infective bacteria "hate" O2. High pressure in the tissues can kill the cells in the tissue - dead cells are a favourite breeding site for bacteria. So reducing both causes of increased pressure should also improve chances.

I'm told that the most effective way to find out which bacteria are causing the problem is to culture a piece of the fibrous abscess wall. Sounds to me as if that's where the so & so's are hiding out, (away from a decent blood supply) just waiting for suitable conditions again. So cutting out the wall, & getting the thing to heal without a lot of fibrous tissue seems important too.

That's as far as I've got to understanding the prob. O.K. How many of the -ve factors can we chip away at?
Come on folks, lets have some thoughts & 1st. hand experience. Don't have to be high brow - just what happened.
 
I agree with you totally about draining the abscess more effectively for the same reason.

There's another reason - the pus takes up space,& increases the pressure on surrounding tissues. Also the normal response to infection is for the capillaries to leak out fluid & WBCs - swelling surrounding tissues. Blood can't get through so easily on both counts - less O2 - most of the infective bacteria "hate" O2. High pressure in the tissues can kill the cells in the tissue - dead cells are a favourite breeding site for bacteria. So reducing both causes of increased pressure should also improve chances.

I'm told that the most effective way to find out which bacteria are causing the problem is to culture a piece of the fibrous abscess wall. Sounds to me as if that's where the so & so's are hiding out, (away from a decent blood supply) just waiting for suitable conditions again. So cutting out the wall, & getting the thing to heal without a lot of fibrous tissue seems important too.

That's as far as I've got to understanding the prob. O.K. How many of the -ve factors can we chip away at?
Come on folks, lets have some thoughts & 1st. hand experience. Don't have to be high brow - just what happened.

I have found that getting rid of as much of the abscess capsule, all of it if possible, significantly increases the chances of a good outcome with no recurrence. Trouble is many abscesses appear to effect the head and hence soft tissue is limited and boney involvement appears to occure more rapidly. Then you are into a much trickier situation and certainly the Bun would need the skills of a Rabbit Savvy Vet willing to prescribe different abx 'off licence'.

The amount of times I have read on here Buns with severe jaw abscesses and osteomyelitis only being given Enrofloxacin (Baytril).
Prescribing abx on the basis of MC+S results should be routine proceedure.
 
I've found that giving homeopathic remedy silicea has been really useful for this. It seems to thin the pus and cause the abscess to reach a head and burst naturally which then means it seems to heal better.
 
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