Really Concerned: Leg Problem

Hi there. I am new, so please forgive me for my first post being quite so negative, but I have read lots of the posts here in recent weeks and can't believe I didn't find it before. So helpful!

Anyway, I have a 3 year old (3 this month) giant rabbit called Zebedee. I have had him for nearly 3 years, and being the animal-mad couple that we are, he is treated like a king (we also have 2 horses and 2 cats). He has a very healthy diet and the vet says he has never seen a rabbit so well looked after, forgetting the fact he rarely sees rabbits anyway because people don't seem to think they need vet care.

He is a part house/part garden rabbit. He has a huge house for himself in the garden and he also comes indoors to run around and have cuddles. He has always been a very fun and lively bunny. Over winter, due to our building work, he came in and rarely went in his garden house or in the garden, but had a whole room to run around in the house all for himself. In Feb/March when the time came for him to go back out in his house, he seemed a little stiff on one hind leg, and this was obvious because he wasn't jumping in and out of his house or racing round like normal. We mentioned it to the vet at his bi-annual jabs/check and the vet just said to keep an eye on it - there was no issue with the rabbit stretching his legs when the vet pulled them, and at that time he was still hopping normally and not really dragging anything.

About 1-2 weeks later, the bunny seemed to be getting less stiff as he began jumping in and out of his house and being his usual self. The he managed to jump and land awkwardly on the ground, twisting his back end as he fell. That same night, we noticed he'd cut his hind paw, so we treated that and assumed it had been because he fell, but equally it could have been a matter of him dragging the leg due to hurting it. A short time later, we noticed he was dragging the back legs, which sometimes went away and sometimes got quite bad. Everything else was normal and healthy (and still is) and he even managed to hop around normally a lot of the time, mainly struggling when getting up from a lying down position or if he'd been curled up for too long. It really was/is quite horrible to watch such a lively bunny struggle to get a grip or any power in his back legs to propel himself up and down levels in his house/hop around properly/get himself up. It seems to be his back right leg that is hurt.

Anyway, so not being ones to shun our responsibilities with our animals, we immediately took him to the vet who checked him over and found nothing obvious. Here is what we have done/eliminated so far.

Eyes are normal.
Ears are normal and cleaned occasionally using a fluid given to us by the vet.
Everything in the mouth is normal.
Claws are all fine.
Coat is fine.
Weight is fine and has not gone up or down.
He is eating as normal.
Drinking as normal.
Pooing and weeing as normal.
Seems to be happy enough, although gets miserable if made to stay in a small space as advised by the vet for obvious reasons.
Xrays showed no breaks to legs, feet, back, hips, neck. No arthritis. No disc problems. No inflammation in the spine that they could see.
He has no contact with other rabbits, so chances of EC were deemed to be slim by the vet, but he is regularly done with panacur anyway. We put him on another course of panacur, although he showed no other signs of EC according to our vet and they doubted it would be that.
GI Stasis has been ruled out.
He has a reasonably large dose of Metacam every day, due to being a large bunny, which seems to help, but as he has it in the evenings (not really a bit enough dose to split), he is worse in the mornings (he does seem to be worse at certain times of day when he seems to almost stiffen up).
Contacted the vet the other day to let her know his leg had not improved (this has gone on for several weeks), and we are now at the stage of being referred, by her, to a specialist vet.

What other things can it possibly be? The vet mentioned possible nerve damage or possibly a sprain/ligament or tendon damage. I also wondered about infection (I have had horses in the past go lame from infection of the joints and was not sure if this was possible in rabbits).

I am quite knowledgeable and very thorough, but I am stumped here. Surely a sprain/ligament problem should be getting better after so many weeks (we are talking since about the end of April now)? Plus, he'd already showed signs of stiffness when he came back outdoors, before he had his little fall, although none of the dragging etc. I am aware that nerve damage could be a long term problem.

Any other ideas?

Thank you so much.

Encephalitozoon Cuniculi is one thing that comes to mind

http://www.houserabbit.co.uk/resources/content/info-sheets/ecuniculi.htm

I would certainly want the Rabbit to be treated with a 28 day course of Fenbendazole aswell as an anti-inflammatory eg Metacam.

If you do a Search on Encephalitozoon Cuniculi on this Forum you will find lots of previous threads about the condition and its treatment.

A problem with the veterbrae in the spine is another possibility. An Xray would be required to diagnose this.

Hi,
Thanks for your reply.
As per my original post, EC has already been ruled out and he is regularly treated with Panacur and was retreated recently due to the leg problem.
Broken bones or problem with the back have also been ruled out as xray was the first thing we did.

Carrie1983 said:

Hi,
Thanks for your reply.
As per my original post, EC has already been ruled out and he is regularly treated with Panacur and was retreated recently due to the leg problem.
Broken bones or problem with the back have also been ruled out as xray was the first thing we did.

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Sorry, only had time to scan your OP

Has he had a full blood profile taken and what dose of Metacam is he on

Metacam is an anti-inflammatory painkiller so if he shows improvement whilst on that it implies that it's something causing pain and/or inflammation.

I agree with Jane to do a long dose for EC just in case but I wouldn't have thought you'd see such an improvement on metacam if that was the main issue. Sometimes more than one thing can combine though so general weakness from EC could exacerbate an injury.

That's OK I guessed, as it is rather long.

Bloods are the next step to be taken, but we are waiting for the referral from the specialist vet as we said to normal vet that as we are now being referred, we would let new vet take it all on. So no bloods taken yet.

He is on 2.3kg dose daily, which is about 3ml I think. He weighs 6.5kg. My feeling is that it is sprain or nerve damage. He seems to be able to feel when I touch or stretch the leg.

Thanks Tamsin.
He has been treated for EC and no improvement and vet also ruled it out on clinical signs (as no bloods taken at the moment), although I know that damage caused by EC can be irreversible.

He does have some improvement on Metacam, but it isn't long term, it's just the short time after he's taken it.

I think I will keep EC in mind, as like you say, it sounds like it could be that, but it just confuses me that he has been treated for this and the vet pretty much ruled it out.

Carrie1983 said:

That's OK I guessed, as it is rather long.

Bloods are the next step to be taken, but we are waiting for the referral from the specialist vet as we said to normal vet that as we are now being referred, we would let new vet take it all on. So no bloods taken yet.

He is on 2.3kg dose daily, which is about 3ml I think. He weighs 6.5kg. My feeling is that it is sprain or nerve damage. He seems to be able to feel when I touch or stretch the leg.

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Not sure I understand the Metacam dosage :?

Do you mean he is on 2.3mg ?

How long do you have him on Panacur for and do you bleach clean his environment to prevent reingestion of EC spores?

No he is on 2.3kg. Will try and take a picture of the syringe and the packet.

It says on the front: "2.3kg dose daily". Then on the syringe, it is measured in KG (this also confused my husband and I as we would actually expect measurement in ml but vet told us to just go with it). I guess the vet and metacam know what they are doing. It is a teeny amount. Like I say, about 3ml.

Re bleaching clean his environment. He has just had a new house built by my husband and has always had fresh bedding etc put in weekly anyway, so no chance of him being reinfected by spores from the old environment.

I think it might refer to the weight of the animal. IE, each kg on the syringe = 1kg of the animal, from what I can work out from what I was just reading about it. Zebedee weighs 6.5kg, so must be on half dose or something.

What length of treatment was your rabbit on Panacur for?

28 days.

He finished the course recently.

But he also has the normal short courses regularly as well.

Carrie1983 said:

Re bleaching clean his environment. He has just had a new house built by my husband and has always had fresh bedding etc put in weekly anyway, so no chance of him being reinfected by spores from the old environment.

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But the spores can survive outside of the host for up to 30 days.
Just putting fresh bedding in wont guarantee no spores.
Particular attention needs to be paid to the bleach cleaning on days 21 and 28 of the course of Panacur.

ETA The most recent thinking is that a 9 day course of Panacur is pointless.
This was information given by a Vet at the last RWAF Conference

Exactly which metacam do you have - dog or cat? And is it branded metacam or a generic meloxicam?

I have an un-branded dog meloxicam for Santa and it sounds similar - the syringe isn't graded by ml it's graded by weight of dog in kg, presumably it makes it easier for dog owners to find the right dose...but of course the dog dose doesn't equate to a bunny dose and it may even be that the brand you have is a different strength to the brand I have! Santa is on the 2kg dog dose of the one I have and she only weighs a kg, so I hope you have a different version otherwise it sounds like either mine is being hugely overdosed or yours is being hugely overdosed! On the syringe I have though I would guess that the 2kg dose is much less than 1ml.

It may be worth talking to your vet about splitting it into two doses though if it seems to help but tail off.

"But the spores can survive outside of the host for up to 30 days.
Just putting fresh bedding in wont guarantee no spores.
Particular attention needs to be paid to the bleach cleaning on days 21 and 28 of the course of Panacur."

He isn't in the original house, though, so it is pointless bleaching it. He has a new house and went into it after the leg complaint started (about a month ago now).

ETS that I see what you are saying, Jane. He went into his house just before he started the 28 days of Panacur, so I should have bleached the new house on days 21 and 28. Got that bit now. However, as I routinely worm horses and know quite alot about wormers (Panacur do horse wormers as well), I am up with a lot of the research about worming, which is why I worm the bunny regularly, despite the vet telling me it was unnecessary; and I am aware that the worms, eggs and parasites are killed inside the gut of the animal, so are dead when passed.

Santa said:

Exactly which metacam do you have - dog or cat? And is it branded metacam or a generic meloxicam?

I have an un-branded dog meloxicam for Santa and it sounds similar - the syringe isn't graded by ml it's graded by weight of dog in kg, presumably it makes it easier for dog owners to find the right dose...but of course the dog dose doesn't equate to a bunny dose and it may even be that the brand you have is a different strength to the brand I have! Santa is on the 2kg dog dose of the one I have and she only weighs a kg, so I hope you have a different version otherwise it sounds like either mine is being hugely overdosed or yours is being hugely overdosed! On the syringe I have though I would guess that the 2kg dose is much less than 1ml.

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He has the one for dogs (EDITED AS I WAS THICK AND WROTE CATS). The vet said he is on a higher dose than a cat would be as he weighs more. When my husband and I looked at her confused, she said a cat would literally be given drops. Zebedee gets what would probably equate to half a teaspoon.

It looks like this:
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i...q=metacam&hl=en&cr=countryUK%7CcountryGB&um=1

It definitely says on the box "2.3kg dose daily" and that is what we give on the syringe that came with the box. We questioned the vet, as I said before, because she said it was a large amount, but actually it looks tiny!

I am doing everything my vet has told me to do and my research has shown me. We are very very responsible animal owners and would never allow an animal of ours to go through unnecessary pain where it could be prevented. He is very well looked after. I just wondered if anyone had any other ideas of what could cause this leg complaint, given that our vet has ruled out certain things and xrays have shown no skeletal defects.

It sounds like your vet is being quite thorough Some vets aren't as good though which is why you are getting questions. It's not we think your not a responsible owner isn't just checking your vet is bunny savvy

I think your going to have to wait for the specialist. It sounds like you've ruled out most of the obvious things already so I'm not sure we're going to come up with a possible cause that hasn't already been proposed.

Thanks Tamsin,
I know you're not; I just don't want people thinking I am THAT kind of owner, iyswim. The kind that's bunny might be at death's door before they see a vet.

Ijust worked out 1.5mg/ml divided by 0.6 which treats up to 2.5kg animal, so looks like Zebedee is on about the right dose.

My vets practice is pretty diverse and they have a range of vets from small animal to equine (which we obviously also use). They are generally good vets and will admit when something has to be referred to someone more specialist, although none of them particularly specialise in rabbits.