Metacam dosage - UD Changed dose, when you would you expect it to work?

Alfie is on 0.8ml of Metacam a day for possible stomach pain. He has only been on in since last night. At first we was giving it as one dose once a day, but just spoken to the vet and he has said we can split the dose to 0.4ml twice a day as he seems to really pick up after it.

The vet has left it up to our judgement as we can see him, and was just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this.

Thanks

I always prefer to split the dose to twice a day, I find it gives the bun a more even level of pain relief

Hugo's There said:

I always prefer to split the dose to twice a day, I find it gives the bun a more even level of pain relief

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I agree

Hugo's There said:

I always prefer to split the dose to twice a day, I find it gives the bun a more even level of pain relief

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Thanks, that's what I was thinking which is why I asked the vet if this is possible.

Does 0.8ml sound like the normal amount for a daily dose? I know it could depend on what is wrong though.

It depends on the bunnies size and problem, but the majority of mine are on the exact same dose

How much does Alifie Weigh?

Maizey said:

How much does Alifie Weigh?

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Last time he was 2.1 I think. The vet did weigh him before he gave him the metacam last night but I didn't see what it was.

the normal dosage is:

dosage (in ml) = wt. in KG x 0.1 / 1.5 PER 24 hr.

so w/ a 2.1KG bun,

dosage = 0.14 ml

and that's about the amt. the vets here use on my bun in the past year, and my buns are also around 2.1KG

So 0.8 ml is very high to me

here's yet another story from another member whose vet overdose her bun and kill her a few hr. later.

sammy`s mom said:

, my four year old rabbit Caramel two weeks ago had one day that she did not eat, i noticed lets say the size of the tip of my pinky finger a little what i now know was sand, sludge with a tiny drop of bllod, i rushed to a vet I DID NOT KNOW, they said she took rabbits, she first gave me atibiotics with metacam at .06ml every 12 hours and then, my rabbit ate a whole bowl of romaine, i was also feeding her, she had normal urine and small poop, i was happy next day she did not eat, i believe the .06ml of metacam made her feel sick , so i called the vet, she said give her 1ml every 12 hours, the next night Caramel had a seizure, caramel took another seizure became paralyzed and died 90 minutes later, www.metacamkills.com, under Dianne`s story you can see my Caramel,

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Happy Hopping said:

the normal dosage is:

dosage (in ml) = wt. in KG x 0.1 / 1.5 PER 24 hr.

so w/ a 2.1KG bun,

dosage = 0.14 ml

and that's about the amt. the vets here use on my bun in the past year, and my buns are also around 2.1KG

So 0.8 ml is very high to me

here's yet another story from another member whose vet overdose her bun and kill her a few hr. later.

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Jason I am affraid you are wrong
Here in the UK Vets now prescribe Metacam at a dose of up to 0.6mg/kg every 24 hours. For the Dog Metacam that is 0.4ml/kg every 24 hours.
The dose can be split into 2 12 hourly doses.

If Alfie weighs about 2kg then 0.8ml of Dog Metacam is fine or it can be given in two doses of 0.4ml every 12 hours.

Jack's-Jane said:

Jason I am affraid you are wrong
Here in the UK Vets now prescribe Metacam at a dose of up to 0.6mg/kg every 24 hours. For the Dog Metacam that is 0.4ml/kg every 24 hours.
The dose can be split into 2 12 hourly doses.

If Alfie weighs about 2kg then 0.8ml of Dog Metacam is fine or it can be given in two doses of 0.4ml every 12 hours.

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I completely agree. Jason you need to be very careful as some advice you give is at best inaccurate and at worst dangerous.
As more research is done vets are becoming more confident at using higher doses of metacam, they are shown to be better at controlling pain with very low incidence of side effects.
the website quoted is an example of hundreds on the web that seem determined to prove that a specific drug is dangerous but has no actual scientific basis, just lots of angry people. There is one for every drug available... I prefer to rely on double blinded scientific control trials thanks!

the vets here in canada has a total different pt. of view. Their view is give what is just necessary, not what the max. a bun can take. Likewise, if you have a headache, and 2 extra strength tylenol can do, would you go w/ 4 x Tylenol 1 Max. Strength?

it's possible that a bun can handle 0.4ml/KG every 24 hr., but does a bun really need that much?

When my bridge bun Goofball had bone cancer, metacam was given for 11 mth. (Dog metacam), up till her bone cancer was dormant. In that time frame, I use about as high as 0.7 to 0.8 ml per 24 hr. And her wt. was 5KG and later on gained weight after the cancer is gone, gained to 7.1KG.

In that 1 yr. time frame, she loved to eat, and wasn't in any kind of pain, so the dosage amt. is correct. The formula I use is the one my vets use, they gave it to me.
At the very beginning, only 0.33 to 0.4 ml was given daily.

There is a "memory effect" by the rabbit, that their body will get used to the metacam amt., and that x amt. of metacam no longer serve any function, and as such, a higher dosage is again needed. And the cycle continues month after month. So if you guys starts w/ a higher dose, then you need an even higher dosage if metacam is needed in mid to long term.

I believe this is the reason why you guys have to use ranitidine so soon whereas I don't need ranitidine on Goofball until Apr of the 2008 (she starts using metacam in May 13, 2007)

And in the end, that other RU member, sammy's mom, 2 ml is all it takes to overdose her 2KG bun in 1.5 hr., paralyzed and die. That rabbit who passed away along w/ the ones on that web site she sent me, are e.g. of overdose of metacam

my other 2 rescue bun, who had spay or neuter surgery, the vets at SPCA only use 0.13 ml everyday for 3 days, they are 2.1KG.

And in the end, the dosage that we use here are clearly tabulated in many rabbit medicine book:

Dr. Hancourt-brown's book
Dr. Barbara Oglesbee's book The 5 minute Veterinary Consult: Ferret and Rabbits

your own country's BSAVA manual, latest 2007 ver.

So, what you found you can use in search, vs. what you needed to use on a bun is 2 different story.

Happy Hopping said:

the vets here in canada has a total different pt. of view. Their view is give what is just necessary, not what the max. a bun can take. Likewise, if you have a headache, and 2 extra strength tylenol can do, would you go w/ 4 x Tylenol 1 Max. Strength?

it's possible that a bun can handle 0.4ml/KG every 24 hr., but does a bun really need that much?

When my bridge bun Goofball had bone cancer, metacam was given for 11 mth. (Dog metacam), up till her bone cancer was dormant. In that time frame, I use about as high as 0.7 to 0.8 ml per 24 hr. And her wt. was 5KG and later on gained weight after the cancer is gone, gained to 7.1KG.

In that 1 yr. time frame, she loved to eat, and wasn't in any kind of pain, so the dosage amt. is correct. The formula I use is the one my vets use, they gave it to me.
At the very beginning, only 0.33 to 0.4 ml was given daily.

There is a "memory effect" by the rabbit, that their body will get used to the metacam amt., and that x amt. of metacam no longer serve any function, and as such, a higher dosage is again needed. And the cycle continues month after month. So if you guys starts w/ a higher dose, then you need an even higher dosage if metacam is needed in mid to long term.

I believe this is the reason why you guys have to use ranitidine so soon whereas I don't need ranitidine on Goofball until Apr of the 2008 (she starts using metacam in May 13, 2007)

And in the end, that other RU member, sammy's mom, 2 ml is all it takes to overdose her 2KG bun in 1.5 hr., paralyzed and die. That rabbit who passed away along w/ the ones on that web site she sent me, are e.g. of overdose of metacam

my other 2 rescue bun, who had spay or neuter surgery, the vets at SPCA only use 0.13 ml everyday for 3 days, they are 2.1KG.

And in the end, the dosage that we use here are clearly tabulated in many rabbit medicine book:

Dr. Hancourt-brown's book
Dr. Barbara Oglesbee's book The 5 minute Veterinary Consult: Ferret and Rabbits

your own country's BSAVA manual, latest 2007 ver.

So, what you found you can use in search, vs. what you needed to use on a bun is 2 different story.

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When did you qualify as a Vet Jason :?

Jason we have had many arguements in the past over Metacam doses, research is carried out and things move on.

I have so many buns on metacam here, most on high doses long term and they have never had any problems.

There is no need to constantly query doses prescribed by vets when they are moderate levels for short term use, all it does is upset the bunny owners who are just trying to do the best for their buns:?

Happy Hopping said:

the vets here in canada has a total different pt. of view. Their view is give what is just necessary, not what the max. a bun can take. Likewise, if you have a headache, and 2 extra strength tylenol can do, would you go w/ 4 x Tylenol 1 Max. Strength?

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The point is that rabbits require a higher dose to actually have an effect. Long term dosing of a drug at a dose that that doesn't actually provide any benefit is pointless. Giving a drug at a dose that is proven to be beneficial is a far better option. Should you take just a tenth of a tylenol tablet just beacuse someone on a forum told you to?

When my bridge bun Goofball had bone cancer, metacam was given for 11 mth. (Dog metacam), up till her bone cancer was dormant. In that time frame, I use about as high as 0.7 to 0.8 ml per 24 hr. And her wt. was 5KG and later on gained weight after the cancer is gone, gained to 7.1KG.

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one case does not count as a scientific trial. Conclusions can only be drawn from high numbers of cases reviewed and statistically analysed.
You suggest using a much lower dose of around 0.2mg/kg looking at your previous calculations. There are several papers that have shown that this will not provide sufficent levels in the blood to provide pain relief for greater than 12hours. how can you advocate this with no real knowledge and risk animals being in pain for half of the day?

There is a "memory effect" by the rabbit, that their body will get used to the metacam amt., and that x amt. of metacam no longer serve any function, and as such, a higher dosage is again needed. And the cycle continues month after month. So if you guys starts w/ a higher dose, then you need an even higher dosage if metacam is needed in mid to long term.

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This is a very minor theoretical effect with metacam and actually most rabbits don't appear to need this increase you suggest.

I believe this is the reason why you guys have to use ranitidine so soon whereas I don't need ranitidine on Goofball until Apr of the 2008 (she starts using metacam in May 13, 2007)

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Ranitidine is a precautionary treatment. Relatively few rabbits develop gastric side effects but we prefer to prevent them in all cases rather than rely on luck.

And in the end, that other RU member, sammy's mom, 2 ml is all it takes to overdose her 2KG bun in 1.5 hr., paralyzed and die. That rabbit who passed away along w/ the ones on that web site she sent me, are e.g. of overdose of metacam

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A sick rabbit given a variety of medications and not surviving does not allow you to point the finger at a single drug. Perhaps the original problem was not identified or did not respond to treatment? I have used metacam many many times at what you call high doses and it has not caused any suspicious adverse effects.

And in the end, the dosage that we use here are clearly tabulated in many rabbit medicine book:

Dr. Hancourt-brown's book
Dr. Barbara Oglesbee's book The 5 minute Veterinary Consult: Ferret and Rabbits

your own country's BSAVA manual, latest 2007 ver.

Click to expand...

These books were published many years ago and the actual information is written and edited 2yrs before the publishing date so the most recent information you are reading is from 2005. This is not as up to date as research carried out last year suggesting much higher doses are required

So, what you found you can use in search, vs. what you needed to use on a bun is 2 different story.

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So therapeutic trials that prove which dose is effective in controlling pain is wrong? How do you come to that conclusion?

I suggest you read up on this before advising others further. Try for starters:

Turner, P.V., Chen, H.C., Taylor, W.M., 2006. Pharmacokinetics of meloxicam in rabbits after single and repeated oral dosing. Comparative Medicine 56

Leach, M.C., et al. Behavioural effects of ovariohysterectomy and oral administration of meloxicam, Res. Vet. Sci. (2009), doi:10.1016/j.rvsc.2009.02.001
63–67.

I also used to split the dose to every 12 hours with my 2 buns - I could often tell the point where the Metacam was becoming ineffective (usually about 16-18 hours in), so the split dose worked brilliantly.

Thanks, I have split his dose today he had 0.4ml at 9am this morning.

If a bun had a tender stomach and was on metacam when would you expect it to work? Alfie seems alot better today but still doesn't flop out.

The vet has said if I don't see enough improvement in 24-48 hrs he will do x-ray and bloods so we can look into the problem more.

I don't want to put hm through things if he doesn't need them.

He isn't rocking as much as he breathes and although he isn't flopping (or even laying down) he does look more relaxed. He is still eating/pooing and running around.

Hmmmm..... Can anyone tell me if the dose Fudge has been prescribed is fine?

I dont know her EXACT weight but she was 2kg before Xmas, she is on 0.75ml twice daily for 3 weeks because of the pain caused by her teeth roots!
After 3 weeks she has to get 0.35ml twice daily for a month, then after that the vet will decide whats necessary then?

He is rabbit savvy and i trust him 100% but i just like to be sure as ive never given metacam before

joey&bugys 2007 said:

Thanks, I have split his dose today he had 0.4ml at 9am this morning.

If a bun had a tender stomach and was on metacam when would you expect it to work? Alfie seems alot better today but still doesn't flop out.

The vet has said if I don't see enough improvement in 24-48 hrs he will do x-ray and bloods so we can look into the problem more.

I don't want to put hm through things if he doesn't need them.

He isn't rocking as much as he breathes and although he isn't flopping (or even laying down) he does look more relaxed. He is still eating/pooing and running around.

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This is taken from the Metacam (Meloxicam) Data Sheet:

Meloxicam is completely absorbed following oral administration and maximal plasma concentrations are obtained after approximately 7.5 hours.

Did the Vet comment on exactly where in the abdomen the area of tenderness was ?

Jack's-Jane said:

This is taken from the Metacam (Meloxicam) Data Sheet:

Meloxicam is completely absorbed following oral administration and maximal plasma concentrations are obtained after approximately 7.5 hours.

Did the Vet comment on exactly where in the abdomen the area of tenderness was ?

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No he didn't. He just said Alfie was a bit tender in his stomach.
He has picked up a bit, but I'm not convinced he is OK. Luckly the 2 rabbit savvy vets are on call during the next few nights.

He has got his head in an empty easter egg box at the moment, so I don't know if I should take him in or just leave him to relax at home as he gets stressed at the vets.