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What do people think

rodneyvet

Warren Scout
Hi im posting this thread following the Tonight episode last night. My question is this. Would people really be happy taking a bun that was really anorexic to a vet who would suggest no treatment after a cursory look at the teeth. No pain relief, no gut stimulant. Here is a (blurred sorry) picture of a rabbits tongue which was referred following a "normal looking mouth" failed to respond to treatment for anorexia. (sorry, I have already trimmed the massive spur which revealed itself only after we had anaesthetised the bunny)
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Poor bunny :( my old girl Pippa had a spur that was hidden by her tongue right at the back of her mouth and was ulcerating the tongue itself. It couldn't be seen under a conscious examination because they couldn't reach that far back with the otoscope but as she was loosing weight the vets decided to GA her in prep for a dental anyway, and that is how they found the spur & soft tissue damage.

I wouldn't have thought anyone on here (that is owners who should know better) would be pleased if their vet sent an anorexic bunny home with no treatment whatsoever.
 
If my rabbit was anorexic and failed to respond to oral meds I would want further investigation to be done even if it did entail an anaesthetic, even the most rabbit savvy vets cannot stipulate that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the teeth unless the rabbit is knocked out.

It's vets that insist there is nothing wrong with their teeth without further investigation (after a rabbit has not eaten for 7 days) that I have the problem with. I had four vets in ONE practice tell me this about one of my rabbits when she had the most malformed molars my 2nd opinion vet had ever seen.

I accept that vets are not 'gods' and will obviously have an interest in specific areas, but I would appreciate them recommending their clients to take their rabbits elsewhere rather than treat them incorrectly rather than lose a client.
 
I wouldn't have thought anyone on here (that is owners who should know better) would be pleased if their vet sent an anorexic bunny home with no treatment whatsoever.

Unfortunately, that's where the problem lies. With my first bunny I had no idea that the way they treated my first rabbit (or lack of) was completely unacceptable. She didn't eat for 7 days and was given nothing more than probiotics and recovery.:( I didn't know enough about rabbits at that time (although I thought I did....in reality I knew not much more than the average rabbit owner).

ETA... she was anorexic after they had operated for the 2nd time on a jaw abscess, broke her jaw in the process and she was given nothing more than a 24 hr pain killer. I asked and asked for pain relief after seeking advice on the internet, all of which they insisted wasn't needed. Sorry...just a little bitter.
 
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Unfortunately, that's where the problem lies. With my first bunny I had no idea that the way they treated my first rabbit (or lack of) was completely unacceptable. She didn't eat for 7 days and was given nothing more than probiotics and recovery.:( I didn't know enough about rabbits at that time (although I thought I did....in reality I knew not much more than the average rabbit owner).

That was kind of my point, it's almost preaching to the converted for the most part on RU. However, lots of people do read the forum who never actually sign up and there are newbies joining each day, so hopefully threads like this will encourage those people to be more questioning of their vets services.

I didn't see the programme (I thought it was on at 9pm for some reason) so am not entirely sure how this thread links to it....if someone could enlighten me I'd be greatful. :wave:
 
I really hope you are right Sooz. I know of tons of people who haven't used their initiative, as obviously you 'trust your vet', and have ended up having their rabbits pts of very minor ailments. It's difficult isn't it.... I think more often than not you end up following your gut instinct where vets are concerned (unless you have 100% confidence in them). I had a feeling something wasn't right with my old vets, yet I continued to let them take charge of her treatment for a few more weeks. I have to live with the fact that I actually made her situation worse.


The programme was focusing on what was seen as unneccessary veterinary treatment, and whether or not vets will try and make money out of healthy animals. They took a rabbit to four different vets claiming that he 'was off his food' and had four varying diagnosis and recommended treatments. One vet took the rabbit out of the room and came back and said he needed immediate treatment on his teeth.... the vet who was representing the programme checked by using an otoscope and said there was nothing wrong with them.

I think the vet claiming that the bunny needed immediate treatment was potentially trying to make some money out of the situation, as it seemed he claimed the problem was urgent.
 
If any of my rabbits were really thin I'd request for them to check their teeth under GA although my vets would most probaby advise this anyway. If I went to my vet ansd said 'he's off is food' They would immedatly give pain relief and a gut stimulant. Although when I phone id make it as an emergency appointment!
 
I wonder if what Rodneyvet is then getting at is that a vet using just an otoscope could not be 100% sure the rabbits teeth didn't need treatment if they hadn't been checked under GA but more importantly that if the rabbit was supposedly off it's food none of the vets should have turned around and said "there is nothing wrong with this rabbit" but rather started diagnostics....which of course, in bunnies, can be quite costly.

In other words, it was a very poor honeytrap to set up. :?
 
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It's difficult isn't it? I trust my current vet, but only because she consults me as well and if she's not sure then she would tell me that and get back to me about it when she'd done some research.
Previous vets have been ok, but I've never been overly confident. However, thanks to the forum, I do have the confidence to speak out now about treatment.
 
I didn't see the TV programme, but it sounds a bit strange. If the rabbit wasn't showing any symptoms of anorexia except 'being off his food' according to the owner (which may have just been an over concerned owner), then why should they have given treatment? :?
 
The reason for the post is to highlight the fact thet this is not the same situation as a bad builder program. If anyone in my position is informed by a client that a rabbit is off its food, we have to believe and trust them. the consequences of not acting can be fatal to the rabbit (ileus/hepatic lipidosis) and vets can be disciplined for negligence if they do not try to find out what the problem is. So offering diagnostics is what we do because in the long term the rabbit benefits. At my surgery on weekends I do emergencies... and that includes rabbit dentals as 1 days anorexia is of concern to me. it seems that the purpose of the exercise was to find a vet who would say "go away with you theres nothing wrong here you must be making it up" (which he was). in the picture I showed the tongue lesion was not visible on a cursory exam by myself or the referring vet so How can this vet rule out a potential dental problem by looking in the mouth of this rabbit and saying it is fine. It probably was fine as the rabbit wasnt anorexic. But would he really send away an anorexic rabbit with no treatment??? that doesnt sound very Rabbit Savvy to me :wave:
 
. But would he really send away an anorexic rabbit with no treatment??? that doesnt sound very Rabbit Savvy to me :wave:

That was pretty much what I thought you were getting at.
Can this programme be watched online at all?
 
If my rabbit was 'off his food' my vets would give pain relief and a gut stimulant as standard. As buns go downhill quickly they wouldnt want to take the chance and I agree with this. If no imporovement they might want to investigate further and Id be happy with that too.
 
But an anorexic rabbit has other symptoms. I'm no vet but wouldn't it be pointless and potentially dangerous to pump a rabbit full of drugs (be it gut motility drugs or anaestetic gas) just because the owner is saying it hasn't eaten?

Surely any vet would be able to assess that the rabbit looked well, didn't have an abnormal temperature, had bowel movement, and would feel faeces inside the digestive system..and consequently think that it probably wasn't an emergency situation? :?
 
I didnt see the programme so cant comment on that specifically. But if I consulted a Vet about an anorexic Rabbit I would expect the Rabbit to receive treatment. However, that is only because I have a small amount of knowledge about Rabbits. If I were a person new to Rabbits or someone who kept them but had no real interest in learning about them then if a Vet said 'there is nothing wrong' I might go away thinking all was well.
I probably wouldn't be thinking that the Vet ( whom I may assume knew more than me) was wrong or that diagnostics should be offered.

I guess what I am trying to say is that most pet owners trust that a Vet will know what they are talking about. Sadly that may not always be the case as far as Rabbits are concerned !! So if the owner has very little knowledge about Rabbit health issues (eg how serious anorexia in Rabbits can be) then perhaps they would not think to question a Vet who claimed that there was nothing wrong. How would a non Bunny Savvy owner be able to identify a non Bunny Savvy Vet !!

The tales I could tell of my early days of Rabbit care giving and of the disasters that occured as a result of my ignorance and the lack of basic knowledge that the Vet I then consulted caused it'd give you nightmares !!

As with most TV Documentaries the message put out is often very biased toward what the Production Team are wanting the viewers to think.
One Editor of a TV Prog about Buns that I was going to participate in told me that they (the editors) would tell me what to say.................:?

So, gone into ramble mode again :oops:

I hope that poor Buns lacerated tongue healed well
 
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As it happens I have a rabbit in as a referral today that has no other symptoms apart from anorexia. Its running around bright as anything, Ive done a full clinical and am going on what the owner says. Ill look in its mouth in a mo and see what there is to see. Rabbits mask symptoms well so anorexia may be the only thing to go on. And yes Ive checked temps, bowel movement,etc before anyone asks. I believe anorexia is a potentially serious symptom and enough to merit an investigation. My clients are very concientious and expect me to act if they are concerned (and i do).
 
...but the point I'm trying to make is that if you took a perfectly healthy rabbit into a vets, you wouldn't expect them to treat it would you?

and rodneyvet I'm a little sceptical about the rabbit having no symptoms other than anorexia...there will be other symptoms even if the owners can't see them. The only time I have known a rabbit not eat and display NO other symptoms is when it has been stressed out by something in it's environment changing (new home, new food, etc)
 
...but the point I'm trying to make is that if you took a perfectly healthy rabbit into a vets, you wouldn't expect them to treat it would you?

and rodneyvet I'm a little sceptical about the rabbit having no symptoms other than anorexia...there will be other symptoms even if the owners can't see them. The only time I have known a rabbit not eat and display NO other symptoms is when it has been stressed out by something in it's environment changing (new home, new food, etc)

I don't understand your point :oops: can you elaborate? It's just I wouldn't consider a rabbit with anorexia perfectly healthy, even if that was the only symptom.
 
I don't understand your point :oops: can you elaborate? It's just I wouldn't consider a rabbit with anorexia perfectly healthy, even if that was the only symptom.

The rabbit used in the TV show was perfectly healthy according to Raven Rexes, who said she knew the rabbit. Why are people getting annoyed about a vet not treating a healthy rabbit?
 
Because the owner lied and said it was anorexic. that to me warrants invstigation. Im not about to start telling my clients they are fussing over nothing. Also I assume you are questioning my clinical examination and that of the referring vet, Perhaps when you have a CertZooMed you will be in a position to do this, I wont wait
 
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