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Are some breeds damaging to their own welfare?

VikkiVet

Mama Doe
I know this is a contraversial topic, but i would be really interested (from a future vet as well as owner POV) in people's views on this. Since the BBC's pedigree dogs exposed programme, there has been vast amounts of literature and debate not only about dog breeds but also cats and rabbits.

i know most people on the forum don't breed their rabbits and actively discourage it, but do you think we should be protesting/debating/petitioning etc against the breeding in general of rabbits breeds whose conformation and features are potentially or actually damaging to their health?

i own a pair of mini rexes myself, and am well aware of their sore hock issues, due to natural lack of guard hairs, and their innate tendency for gastric issues. And there are other breeds such as Netherlands Dwarfs, whose heads are becoming increasingly brachycephalic (shortened) leading to respiratory issues and potentially brain damage and malevelopment; dwarf lops also have shortened heads and accentuated eyebrows; certain lops have increasingly large ears with the potential for damage and infection....this list goes on and on.

Should we therefore be promoting the return of rabbit breeding to the more "wild type" - medium sized, uppy-eared and all in proportion? or are there benefits of having so many breeds and conformational differences?

I hope no-one is insulted by this question, i am genuinely seeking opinion and knowledge on the subject. If i can find enough information i may write my assignment on this topic this year.
Thanks
 
Wow I wasn't aware so many things could go wrong but I was reading about the mini rex problem with their hocks. I'm not sure about the subject tbh because I've never bred rabbits and am pretty dense about it so would never try. But I do think people should care less about breeding rabbits and focusing just on what's more healthy in the long run, which you said is more like wild rabbits.

I've two lionheads any problems I should be aware of??
 
I know most people on the forum don't breed their rabbits and actively discourage it, but do you think we should be protesting/debating/petitioning etc against the breeding in general of rabbits breeds whose conformation and features are potentially or actually damaging to their health?

Should we therefore be promoting the return of rabbit breeding to the more "wild type" - medium sized, uppy-eared and all in proportion? or are there benefits of having so many breeds and conformational differences?

I have very little knowledge on the subject of rabbit breeds, but it certainly follows that selective breeding for type will, as you say, accentuate potentially health damaging features. I'm sure I've read posts from rescuers bemoaning the difficulty of caring for the fluffiest rabbits. It doesn't seem at all natural to breed such long coated bunnies, or those with huge lopped ears that drag along the floor.

Personally I would be very interested in finding out more on the subject, and certainly supportive of any campaign providing evidence that certain breeds damage health.

I have a conti giant and I am concerned that her size when fully grown may impact negatively on her health.
 
there was a topic like this in my horse magazine. i personally think theres alot to debate about this, thus i'm not gonna sat anything. :D
 
Should we therefore be promoting the return of rabbit breeding to the more "wild type" - medium sized, uppy-eared and all in proportion? or are there benefits of having so many breeds and conformational differences?
Thanks

I for one would certainly like to see a return to a more 'wild type' of rabbit. Wild rabbits, along with other wild animals, have evolved to be how they are because it works!

Herbie has congenital dental disease which is down to the shape of his head, a known problem with lops as you have already mentioned. Herbie is lucky because he gets the treatment he needs to keep him happy and healthy. Many other buns are not so lucky and suffer horrendously. :(

I'd love to see the phasing out of breeds with known problems. I know they are cute and in the right hands many problems can be managed, but unfortunately so many of these buns are not in the right hands.
 
As with all species of animals, breeders should be working towards correcting any problems and not increasing them. Unfortunately, especially in the small world, there are too many back street breeders who have no knowledge of genetics or even care if they're breeding from siblings. And show standards don't help in many cases (all animals). We really need to change the breeding policies in all species and breed for health and temperament instead of show standards. Health should be at the forefront of any breeders minds, but that's not going to happen when just about anybody can breed animals.
 
Wow I wasn't aware so many things could go wrong but I was reading about the mini rex problem with their hocks. I'm not sure about the subject tbh because I've never bred rabbits and am pretty dense about it so would never try. But I do think people should care less about breeding rabbits and focusing just on what's more healthy in the long run, which you said is more like wild rabbits.

I've two lionheads any problems I should be aware of??

We were told from our rabbit vet stay away from lion heads as they have the worst dental issues due to breed!
As for rexes I found out they have worst problems with heart attacks. Aswell as feet.
Obv giant rabbits only have life sapn of 5-6 years most due to breed and little ones with respiratory problems as said above.
Lops have bad ear problems with standing on them due to breeding the list is endless!
People don't care make few quid experiment move on to new fashion rabbit/dog/cat.
 
I know Netherland Dwarfs very often have teeth problems due to the size of their heads being too small.

I have a Nethie with ongoing tooth problems.
 
Having been the owner of an English lop I think the way these are bred to look is terrible. Although mine had a lot of problems that was not breed specific to also watch her try to walk and be permanently standing on her ears broke my heart. I know Evie had mobility issues but when Faye's Leo stayed here he did exactly the same thing :( She also had on going ear mite problems that we couldn't get on top of

Saying that she was the most gentle loving girl you could wish for and I miss her terribly even now.

If I ever got to choose my rabbits for looks, my preference would be a beautiful up eared bunny, with a long face and athletic looking body. To me this is the way rabbits are supose to look :)
 
I don't think breed specific problems are as common in rabbits as in dogs, but there is one thing that bothers me about dwarf rabbits. Most specifically the Netherland dwarf and the polish.
To be approved in a show they should be small and with short ears, a trait that often follows the dwarf-gene (a nethie without the dwarf gene will often be a bit bigger and with longer ears) Alone the gene causes little harm, but occasionally two dwarves produce a double-dwarf (peanut I believe is the English term?) which rarely lives past a few days. :cry:

I've never heard of rexes getting heart attacks (might be something in the UK line, I dunno). I guess the most breed spesific problem they have is that they're more prone to sore paws than other breeds, since the fur on their feet is so thin.

I dislike the English lop because of their needlessly long ears, can't imagine that being very comfortable. The breed's not very common in Norway though so I've never seen one in real life...also I've heard they don't do well in our climate because their ears can freeze. "Our" lops have shorter ears (French, German, Dwarf and Lionlop)

Sadly people tend to breed for good looks whenever they discover an animal that's "special".
As an example: the first rex rabbits came from a mixbred litter and these were bred to one another to such extent they were nearly ruined by inbreeding, and also said to be rather "ugly" (bred for fur quality only).
It's improved lately, as people started adding new rabbits to the line (shame the rex gene is recessive but if you want to create a new breed, you'll need a huge lot of rabbits to avoid inbreeding...if not; don't do it).
 
If I ever got to choose my rabbits for looks, my preference would be a beautiful up eared bunny, with a long face and athletic looking body. To me this is the way rabbits are supose to look :)

Strawberry is meant to be a lionhead but as he gets older his fluff is going and he is becoming more hare like! He is sooo elegant and wildie looking at times!
 
Phoebe has a very small face (due to breed) and the vet keeps an eye on his teefs just incase, she also keeps a close eye on Mr Fletchers!
My main issue with Phoebe tbh has been gut stasis - with no apparent cause!
 
Should we therefore be promoting the return of rabbit breeding to the more "wild type" - medium sized, uppy-eared and all in proportion?

I would say 'yes'. As Tracy said - wild rabbits have evolved in that shape because it works! I would also add it's not purely about the shape, but also things like fur length - stands to reason that rexes will have problems because of their very short fur, and angoras etc (and to a certain extent, fluffy lionheads etc) may have problems due to the length of their fur. Apart from the fact that they are more likely to get tangled, muddy, harder to groom themselves etc, many owners just aren't able to cope with the grooming and care demands of long fur either. As that is detrimental to their health and welfare, so why breed it as a deliberate characteristic?
 
Yes, I agree that breed types of rabbits are damaging to their health, which is the reason why my next rabbits will be mixes and more wild like.
 
My answer is a simple 'yes' too - anything we can do to discourage selective breeding should stop.

The BBC prog about dog breeding raised a lot of controversial issues and touched on a number of sensitive subjects. But selective breeding has been stopped (or at least made illegal - even in war..) for humans and I see no reason why us humans can morally justify it for animals - especially when it is done for aesthetic reasons.

There is a totally different discussion and debate to evaluate the morals of selectively breeding OUT congenital diseases (in both humans and animals).

In my opinion, any breeding that maintains and increases deformity/disease or affects quality of life should be made illegal. Basically it is very close to knowingly doing harm.

We really should leave all this to Mother Nature... she kind of coped quite well before us humans decided we knew better.

Let bunnies be bunnies, I say!
 
Should we therefore be promoting the return of rabbit breeding to the more "wild type" - medium sized, uppy-eared and all in proportion? or are there benefits of having so many breeds and conformational differences?

I think everything you said makes sense. I would agree with it, i don't think we should be breeding rabbits smaller, bigger, longer eared etc because that's not how they are meant to be. Its becoming too much about what they look like, i don't think that should be important enough to breed certain problems into them.

But also my boy Bugs is a medium sized, uppy eared bun thats all in proportion yet he has bad dental problems, even though he's only young and on a good diet.
 
Selective breeding isn't necessarily bad, as letting them breed as they want to could cause even more problems. You just gotta remember what's important.
Health should always come first! Temperament second, and looks last.
 
ive had a pet shop bun a dwarf lop and she had terrible healthissues..oral syphilis...molar probs awful.....eye infections blocked tear ducts....ear infections..of which only the oral syphilis was curable:( she was rung and so naively it thought properly bred owuld be better than usual back garden buns.
oh how stupid of me:cry:
next was a baby bun from a heinze 57 huge eared mummy with a lovley nature and a black boxy faced uppy eared but small buck. woozle was a dead ringer for a sable marten/silver ofx so folks told me..and he was mad huge huge ears for his body tho! he was athletic etc but had crystals in his bladder and kidneys..only his mum is still alive..his dad and siblings are all dead!
next came oscar...a mini lop from a breeder retiring her entire stock after over 25yrs. oh no noo dental probs at all..liar!:censored: he had the usual breed probs where he was almsot a year old and the probs began shortly after getting him.......
then whilst he was alive came bif...from a local fosterer for at the time a local rescue...online she was uppy eared and indeed when we saw her...once relaxed a little a few weeks later it transpired she was actually a lop:shock:
her ears are very short fat n thick and her head is quite small and almost round:shock: her brother apparently was lionhead/lop i later discovered. shes got a receding lower jaw that makes her prone to spurs but also gi probs from her being a messed up bunny treated wise..post traumatic stress in a bun:( but luckily eye and ear probs none.
when oscar died she laid down to die..a lady lent me her frenchie..she is a hobbyist shower and only has like 2 litters a year and bertie was ex stud retianed as a pet. He ended up being adopted by me and i guilty as charged fell in love with him..even tho i used to dislike rew. his gentle nature etc won me over and when the vet suggested getitng a third bun the rescue bif was from had long since stopped iwth buns then dogs and is now a cat only rescue.
so i went back to the lady who i got bertie from and against my better sense got a baby form ehr purely because wed got a bond with bertie..and she was showing us the buns explaining everything exercise etc we stayed whilst it was food and lcean out time and handled some buns all are handled a lot to get them friendly etc. She said she "interviews" prospective owners and even vsits some! too may brc registered breeders and backyard breeders just want to put out as many buns as poss and to hell with the genetic problems ..the backyard ones interbreed knowing it causes prblems.
she uses buns from outside the group owned by her closest friend and they show their buns only from the one or two litters a year if its that oerosns turn to attempt a different colour..
she refused to breed or show little buns as it was worse for them now with the show points being so bad..they couldnt breed for lifespan or health choices just hoped they made it to be showed so she said no.
she had a record of all buns lineage and any buns who had developed health probs be it the ones used to breed for a few eyars beofre being retired and kept as pets or the ones that had gone to be pets with folks and developed health probs. genetics is a fools paradise and she wanted to keep up with any probs ad all lops are predisposed to dental probs if the jaw is not right and the face is tooo squashed.
neithe bertie or willows faces showed the signs of being as flat as my dear old dwarf lop.
berties had so many probs since coming to me but not breed related luckily. Bif saldy has..many many dentals....willow had the Ec scare but it was an ear infetcion as a baby a mild one. she was as helathy as a horse but she died in oct and would have been two in dec..the vets said it wasnt worth doing a pm as it sounded and seemed like it was an embolism...i felt so awful..she wasnt overweight just masive and kept growing..whereas her dad and siblings were berties size and her mum altho massive wasnt as big as her daughter. somehwere down the linieage i guess maybe flemish giant or similar caused her growth or maybe she had growth disorder..who knows.
bandit was a lionhea dor maybe a cross..he was silky furred and not fluffy but had a mulelt hairdo and it was silky not fluffy..he never ever got ill apart from the stress related weeing prob he developed after bif split from the group..once with her he was fine. no dental probs no squishy poo probs ate anything and everything.....and was found dying suddenly..he had never been ill so he hid it well..pm showed acute bloat:(

were so guilty of mutating and mutilating our pets......ear cutting..tail docking..declawing etc then breeding horors like the daschund and the munchkin cat let laone the poor rabbits......
i feel awful for the poor english lops..so sad...but i also feel sorry for the masisve breeds but it is an occurrence to find large heavy set buns and weeny buns even on soemwhere like scomar island i think its called..the buns arent just wild colours now..some have odd colours etc due to mutaitons in the genes.

large buns and rexes are prone to heart probs like maine coon cats are

persian cats are born with polycystic kidney disease and horrific resp probs..

you look back at original persians and traditional siamese cats lovley but who decided to refine and over exaggerate was best?:censored:
The big buns were bred right back in 18th century to be meat producers explains the huge size and limited lifespan. altho i know and jo knows folks who have contis and frenchies who are 8 or 10a and not arthritic messes etc....whereas others are born almsot with arhritis setting in etc and its al down to gentetics. so we can in effect breed out health probs but instead choose to breed them in.
maybe soon a revolution will start like has begun in cat breeding..people do not watnt he modern siamese they want the old traditional one stocky one not et lookalike!! others are pondering this with persians oh and bulldogs too etc.
thing is you can never stop this altogether but if the breeders themselves decline to do as what is expected and produe the backlash breeds instead it would still leave thousands of buns looking for homes still and still thousands of health probs as youd need to cull all domesticated buns everywhere to re domesticate buns from wildies.

it shouldnt be looks for the price of health but its like it with animals so much as i guess the human race cannot genetically modify itself..oh wait...it can now!!:(

i didnt adopt bertie cos he was a frenchie i adopted him as the crr wasnt able to get back to me in time etc and i dont think i was a member here or id have asked or maybe was too naive! i adopted him as he saved bifs life and they were too attahced and so were we and jo didnt want to rip the bond apart and wanted him to be happy anyway so we had him for his perosna and with willow it was because jo was so honest and open and her buns were so helathy lineage etc and she was always there it was the persona we fell inlove with not the looks. bif was cos she deserved love and a good home and be a companion to oscar..willow was to become the htird bun but bif bullied her too much for over a year. bandit was supposed to be terirble as a lionhead or even a cross right..nope.
berties eye probs have ben as a result of one of those things an injury leading to an ulcer anybun could have it happen.

but jo did explain that buns all have the same size heart really and its why big buns suffer so much:( so yes its cruel but its not gong to stop so maybe we can only hope some breed standards can be reversed a lot like osme cat and dog ones are now as the health probs are so severe:(
 
bump
thanks for the replies so far - i have just had the idea approved for my assignment so i might make a survey for you guys to fill in, and of course i will publish the final article so you can have a read (and tell me what i got wrong!)

a friend has just finished her research on why rabbits should be kept in pairs - looked in physiological reasons inc stress levels - would anyone like a read of it, if i can get a copy?
 
a friend has just finished her research on why rabbits should be kept in pairs - looked in physiological reasons inc stress levels - would anyone like a read of it, if i can get a copy?[/QUOTE]

I would like to read it please vikki.
I have continental giant rabbits and some of mine have had a problem wih the staph aureus bacteria,which has caused abscesses and inner ear problems and eventually death.I believe after being on this forum and some other forums there is something going on with this breed as Im not the only one to have had these probems with the big rabbits.
 
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