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Jazzy B Bunny
12-02-2009, 02:58 PM
Now that my jazz has been diagnosed a dental bun I am looking for a vet that's willing to do them with out a GA. Does anyone know of one in Plymouth?

Jack's-Jane
12-02-2009, 04:07 PM
Personally I dont agree with attempting to do a Dental on a Rabbit without sedation.

I have spoken to several Bunny savvy Vets about this recently, including 2 specialising in Rabbits and Rabbit Dentistry. The general consensus is that conscious Dentals are 'not best practice' as it is completely impossible to do a thorough job. It is stressful for the Rabbit and potentially dangerous as their is a very vascular area at the back of a Rabbits mouth. One slip and the Rabbit could bleed to death :cry:
The risk of a GA is far less than the potential to do harm in attempting to carry out a Dental proceedure that cannot possibly be thorough and therefore possibly exacerbating an existing problem.

I hope one of our RU Vets will feel able to comment on this as I know that my words are only those of an 'Bunny Care-Giver

:)

Jazzy B Bunny
12-02-2009, 04:21 PM
Thanks for that jane. My vet did explain the prcedure to me, but having read about others having it done without GA I thought it was a better option.. I guess I'm wrong. I'm just so scared if losing him:(

rodneyvet
12-02-2009, 04:44 PM
Its really not something i would do. i find that with the right anaesthetic protocol dentals are really not a problem. they are quite quick generally and a better examination is done. the risks associated with damage to the sensitive structures of the mouth are very significant if this procedure is carried out in the concious animal. It is very stressful even in "hypnotised" rabbits. In fact blood samples from hypnotised rabbits show them in fact to be very stressed. But back to the point if you want a proper examination carried out win the safest manner, do not go for a concious dental
Goodluck

abbymarysmokey
12-02-2009, 05:18 PM
How often does Jazz need dentals doing? If it's an infrequent thing, there isn't really much point looking for a vet who will do conscious dentals because chances are that they won't be near to you, so any savings will be lost through added time and petrol.

If it becomes a frequent thing, then it is something you should look into.

I fully believe that my Abby would be dead by now without conscious dentals. There is no way she would be able to go under GA every 2 weeks, and would either have died during a GA dental or have been PTS. She had already got to the point of needing monthly dentals when I transfered her to my current vets (who do conscious dentals) and I'm so glad I did because it has bought us an extra year of time with her already :)

Jazzy B Bunny
12-02-2009, 05:27 PM
He had his 1st dental 3 weeks ago and he's showing signs again :( he's due a vhd jab 2nd march so I'll get the vet to look at him then. I can't afford it at the moment as it's £140 a time :(

abbymarysmokey
12-02-2009, 05:29 PM
He had his 1st dental 3 weeks ago and he's showing signs again :( he's due a vhd jab 2nd march so I'll get the vet to look at him then. I can't afford it at the moment as it's £140 a time :(

£140 Eeek! :shock: :shock: That is waaay more than you should be paying...more like emergency vet prices!!

honeybunny
12-02-2009, 05:32 PM
We use a vet who does conscious and without this we couldn't keep the dental buns that come in..the high cost of GA dentals is the reason some rescues have no option but to pts dental bunnies:cry:

The two vets I know of who do them without GA charge between £10 - £20 a time..a big difference to £140

and we have lost one bunny soon after a conscious dental although doubtful the dental casued the death:?

but have heard of approx 9 people in the last 15 months who have lost bunnies as a result of GA dental.we also lost a bun ..little Stella..after a GA dental:cry:

So I'm in favour of them!

rodneyvet
12-02-2009, 05:35 PM
How often does Jazz need dentals doing? If it's an infrequent thing, there isn't really much point looking for a vet who will do conscious dentals because chances are that they won't be near to you, so any savings will be lost through added time and petrol.

If it becomes a frequent thing, then it is something you should look into.

I fully believe that my Abby would be dead by now without conscious dentals. There is no way she would be able to go under GA every 2 weeks, and would either have died during a GA dental or have been PTS. She had already got to the point of needing monthly dentals when I transfered her to my current vets (who do conscious dentals) and I'm so glad I did because it has bought us an extra year of time with her already :)


have you ever watched it done? What do you suppose would happen if the lingual artery or the buccal artery were damaged during the procedure. These arteries lie in close proximity to the cheek teeth and fatal bleeds can occur. Under anaesthesia these can be dealt with. If this happened in a concious rabbit, it would drown in its own blood (dont mean to sound barbaric but it has happened). I would think subjecting a rabbit to the stress and risk of this procedure monthly would be morally questionable.... but thats just me

Jazzy B Bunny
12-02-2009, 05:37 PM
I'm so confused and scared :( there's so many different opinions! I'd never have him pts though unless it was really serious.

abbymarysmokey
12-02-2009, 05:41 PM
have you ever watched it done? What do you suppose would happen if the lingual artery or the buccal artery were damaged during the procedure. These arteries lie in close proximity to the cheek teeth and fatal bleeds can occur. Under anaesthesia these can be dealt with. If this happened in a concious rabbit, it would drown in its own blood (dont mean to sound barbaric but it has happened). I would think subjecting a rabbit to the stress and risk of this procedure monthly would be morally questionable.... but thats just me

The rabbit has a gag inserted to hold the mouth open and the teeth are done with either a manual file on it's own or a combination of bone ronguers (sp?) and the file.

I'm not questioning your theoretical knowledge at all, but I do know that a rabbit is more likely to die under GA (especially an ill rabbit as many dental bunnies are) than having a conscious dental from a competant vet who has carried out the procedure countless times.

I'm not advocating that vets do conscious dentals if they don't want to, or don't feel able to do them without causing harm, but it is a good option for some rabbits like my Abby

Jazzy B Bunny
12-02-2009, 05:48 PM
I'll just see how often he needs it doing. There's so many different views! :(

chloaster
12-02-2009, 05:50 PM
have you ever watched it done? What do you suppose would happen if the lingual artery or the buccal artery were damaged during the procedure. These arteries lie in close proximity to the cheek teeth and fatal bleeds can occur. Under anaesthesia these can be dealt with. If this happened in a concious rabbit, it would drown in its own blood (dont mean to sound barbaric but it has happened). I would think subjecting a rabbit to the stress and risk of this procedure monthly would be morally questionable.... but thats just me

Yes - my vet was confident enough to carry it out infront of me and whilst it did make me flinch I wouldn't have had Shayla for the time I did if she'd had to undergo a GA every month as with all her internal damage there is no way she would have survived. It's a personal choice and unfortunately insurance doesn't usually cover them so the reality of cost has to be considered too.

We have a baby bun in rescue at the moment who needs his doing every month and we will be using the concious route as, like Jill says, we wouldn't be able to afford GA every month but whilst the option is there we want to give him as long and happy life as possible.

Jack's-Jane
12-02-2009, 05:54 PM
I can't afford it at the moment as it's £140 a time :(

That seems very expensive.
The most I have ever paid is £75 and that included full GA and extraction of all Incisors.

Jazzy B Bunny
12-02-2009, 05:54 PM
If he needs it every month, I think I'll go down the conscious dental route.. He's had so many GAs already I hate it when he has one! :(

rodneyvet
12-02-2009, 06:04 PM
The rabbit has a gag inserted to hold the mouth open and the teeth are done with either a manual file on it's own or a combination of bone ronguers (sp?) and the file.

I'm not questioning your theoretical knowledge at all, but I do know that a rabbit is more likely to die under GA (especially an ill rabbit as many dental bunnies are) than having a conscious dental from a competant vet who has carried out the procedure countless times.

I'm not advocating that vets do conscious dentals if they don't want to, or don't feel able to do them without causing harm, but it is a good option for some rabbits like my Abby

Why dont you stick your kitten down a wellie boot and castrate it while you are at it. Sorry I dont agree. I have many clients who prefer me to do a proper job every month (and i do it at a reduced fee) with less stress to the rabbit. Believe me I get sent the rabbits others do not want to treat due to age illness etc since i run a referral centre and i anaesthetise all the dentals and to date touch wood have not lost one. You clearly think its ok to put your rabbit through this and so I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree

abbymarysmokey
12-02-2009, 06:15 PM
Why dont you stick your kitten down a wellie boot and castrate it while you are at it. Sorry I dont agree. I have many clients who prefer me to do a proper job every month (and i do it at a reduced fee) with less stress to the rabbit. Believe me I get sent the rabbits others do not want to treat due to age illness etc since i run a referral centre and i anaesthetise all the dentals and to date touch wood have not lost one. You clearly think its ok to put your rabbit through this and so I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree

There's no need to take that sarcastic attitude :? :shock:

If you're local to me, then I might bring rabbits to you if you have never lost one under GA.

Believe me, I know my own rabbits (more than any vet) and they are not in pain or stressed after a conscious dental. The only time they appear stressed is if I have to drop them off in the morning for a whole day at the vets for a procedure under GA.

If you have never seen a conscious dental, I don't see how you can be so sure that it causes distress to the rabbit anyway? :?

Jazzy B Bunny
12-02-2009, 06:16 PM
Why dont you stick your kitten down a wellie boot and castrate it while you are at it. Sorry I dont agree. I have many clients who prefer me to do a proper job every month (and i do it at a reduced fee) with less stress to the rabbit. Believe me I get sent the rabbits others do not want to treat due to age illness etc since i run a referral centre and i anaesthetise all the dentals and to date touch wood have not lost one. You clearly think its ok to put your rabbit through this and so I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree

Do you have buns come it who have it done under GA every month?

chloaster
12-02-2009, 06:26 PM
Why dont you stick your kitten down a wellie boot and castrate it while you are at it.

I've had buns kick up more of a stink about having their nails clipped than I ever have with a bun having their teeth done - I really hope you're not quite so sarcastic with your clients should they disagree with you at any point! :roll:

Lspacehopper
12-02-2009, 06:40 PM
Why dont you stick your kitten down a wellie boot and castrate it while you are at it. Sorry I dont agree. I have many clients who prefer me to do a proper job every month (and i do it at a reduced fee) with less stress to the rabbit. Believe me I get sent the rabbits others do not want to treat due to age illness etc since i run a referral centre and i anaesthetise all the dentals and to date touch wood have not lost one. You clearly think its ok to put your rabbit through this and so I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree

If you disagree with someone, then fine, disagree but there is no need to take that attitude with Amy. Amy loves her rabbits and the care she gives them could never be questioned. She knows exactly how her rabbits behave and react to teatments.

rodneyvet
12-02-2009, 06:48 PM
Do you have buns come it who have it done under GA every month?

yes sometimes more frequently than that
Sorry if i sound sarcastic. Its just that I feel that concious dentals (which I have seen) belong with the practice I outlined. I have also seen first hand the consequences of when concious dentals have gone wrong because when they do they are sent to me. Its all very well to talk about positive experiences. but how would you feel if suddenly a large amount of blood came from your rabbits mouth or it started coughing up blood and had to be rushed out the back to be anaesthetised. Believe me there is little more stressful than anaesthetising a rabbit that thinks it is going to asphyxiate. To me doing concious dentals is at best not doing a proper job as it is impossible to examine the mouth properly. at worst it is playing roulette with a rabbits life

btw, my clients tend to appreciate the fact that I call things as I see them. and with fluid therapy, analgesia and sevoflurane anaesthesia. i am totally confident in my abilities to do a proper safe job

honeybunny
12-02-2009, 06:54 PM
Rodneyvet apart from the fact your post before last was rude
I also have seen rabbits have dentals without a ga.
my own rabbit Thistle,,who was ancient, took a week to recover from a GA dental and I wouldn't put her through it again..it was then I found a vet..the same one Chloe uses..who did teeth without GA..Thistle had her teeth done regularly for the next two years ..showed no signs of stress and was eating right away
We generally use another vet for dentals now and again none of the rabbit shave shown any stress at all
Of course there is a risk..but the same risk is there with a GA as as already said..several people have lost their rabbits to a GA dental..but not to a conscious one..point proven I think

And would like to stress..for some rabbits who are really nervous and so unhandlable..or who have serious teeth problems..our vets do recommend a GA

foofoo
12-02-2009, 06:55 PM
The last dental archie had cost £43 and that was under GA. £140 is very expensive :shock: We asked our vets about him having conscious dental's but they said they don't do them because of the risks involved. He's come round from 2 dental's fine.

rodneyvet
12-02-2009, 07:16 PM
Rodneyvet apart from the fact your post before last was rude
I also have seen rabbits have dentals without a ga.
my own rabbit Thistle,,who was ancient, took a week to recover from a GA dental and I wouldn't put her through it again..it was then I found a vet..the same one Chloe uses..who did teeth without GA..Thistle had her teeth done regularly for the next two years ..showed no signs of stress and was eating right away
We generally use another vet for dentals now and again none of the rabbit shave shown any stress at all
Of course there is a risk..but the same risk is there with a GA as as already said..several people have lost their rabbits to a GA dental..but not to a conscious one..point proven I think

And would like to stress..for some rabbits who are really nervous and so unhandlable..or who have serious teeth problems..our vets do recommend a GA
I think not

A study was done at Edinburgh Universtiy. They speyed a load of rabbits and gave them varying levels of pain relief ranging from plenty to none at all. They than observed the rabbits for signs associated with pain and found none. They knew some of the rabbits were in pain and concluded that as a species, rabbits tend not to exhibit obvious signs of pain. We still give painkillers however

Blood taken from hypnotised rabbits showed them to have very high plasma cortisol levels and as a result concluded that these "calmed sedated "rabbits were in fact very stressed.

So just because the rabbit doesnt kick up a stink are you ABSOLUTELY SURE it is not stressed

Im sorry that people think its ok to do these things to rabbits

As i said I HAVE SEEN what happens when it goes wrong have you? its not nice

Ive had to remove molars which have had the pulp damaged, Ive treated rabbits with pneumonia due to inhalation of blood.

I believe that with the correct anaesthetic protocol and attention to getting on with the job, rabbits can tolerate multiple dentals. they do at my practice

I have had fillings done with no local. I dont want to have a numb mouth all day. Its quite uncomfortable but I know whats going to happen so i dont mind. Can you really look me in the screen and say that a rabbit that is restrained, has a gag put in its mouth and has its teeth filed concious is in no way going to be concerned about this... at all

Do you know how they collect urine samples from sheep. They smother them and when the sheep gets so scared that it thinks it is going to die it urinates. This is what putting a prey species through stress can do. Just because an animal doesnt get all hot under the collar doesnt mean its not stressed

honeybunny
12-02-2009, 07:25 PM
Well from our own experiences..and i hadn't mentioned sheep!...we'll have to disagree
All I know is the many dental bunnies we keep alive and well would not be here but for vets that will see to them without a ga..
and going back to stress..the vet Chloe uses will see to a bun with a spur in less than two minutes....probably less time than putting a bun through the stress of getting ready for an op:?

rodneyvet
12-02-2009, 07:29 PM
Yep we will agree to disagree
Takes 2 weeks of intensive hospitilisation to treat a pneumonic blood clot:?

Jack's-Jane
12-02-2009, 07:29 PM
My own personal opinion is that I would not subject any Rabbit in my care to a Conscious Dental. It is an opinion I have held for many years. So I will agree to differ with those who opt for a conscious Dental :)

abbymarysmokey
12-02-2009, 07:33 PM
So just because the rabbit doesnt kick up a stink are you ABSOLUTELY SURE it is not stressed



Yes, I am absolutely sure my rabbits are no more stressed than during any normal vet visit...in fact after a few conscious dentals they actually get used to the routine and become very accepting of it. They are never tranced to do the procedure.

Yes, I DO know when my rabbits are in pain...that is something you learn after many years of rabbit ownership.

IMO you can't compare pain after spaying to the after effects of a conscious dental...that is like comparing chalk and cheese. I have metacam here to give any rabbit if they are in pain, but very rarely use it after dentals because the rabbit is usually back to normal straight afterwards.

Also...I presume you treat rats, hamsters, mice and other rodents. Do you insist on giving them a GA too?

The Duchess
12-02-2009, 07:34 PM
I have to agree with the rescue ladies. Our vet is very experienced in rabbit medicine and regularly does dentals both conscious and unconscious dependent on the rabbit and the work that is necessary.

I feel totally confident in his ability and would choose conscious where possible. For most rabbits that have to be admitted to a vet clinic for a day, the whole ordeal is more likely to cause a stasis than the stress of a few minutes with a gag in it's mouth. I understand the risks of damage to arteries etc but the benefit for me (and I believe my rabbits) far outway the risks.

I am not advocating that all vets should carry out this procedure, but from my own experience, I would always like to have the choice and feel very happy for my vet to carry out the work consciously.

abbymarysmokey
12-02-2009, 07:37 PM
Yep we will agree to disagree
Takes 2 weeks of intensive hospitilisation to treat a pneumonic blood clot:?

Why should this be more of a problem with conscious dentals? :?

And how many of your referrals have been from conscious dentals compared to GA ones.

You seem to be giving us theory, but no stats on actual dental work or even your own experiences. Whereabouts is your vet practice?...if there is a vet nearby doing dental work badly, I think rabbit owners need to know.

rodneyvet
12-02-2009, 07:40 PM
Yes, I am absolutely sure my rabbits are no more stressed than during any normal vet visit...in fact after a few conscious dentals they actually get used to the routine and become very accepting of it. They are never tranced to do the procedure.

Yes, I DO know when my rabbits are in pain...that is something you learn after many years of rabbit ownership.

IMO you can't compare pain after spaying to the after effects of a conscious dental...that is like comparing chalk and cheese. I have metacam here to give any rabbit if they are in pain, but very rarely use it after dentals because the rabbit is usually back to normal straight afterwards.

Also...I presume you treat rats, hamsters, mice and other rodents. Do you insist on giving them a GA too?

Yes they all get anaesthetics. As for your other points. Im afraid I disagree with you. Also my dentals go home with pain relief. Im glad you can justify these things to yourselves. I hope you never have to experience any problems

The Duchess
12-02-2009, 07:42 PM
Yes they all get anaesthetics. As for your other points. Im afraid I disagree with you. Also my dentals go home with pain relief. Im glad you can justify these things to yourselves. I hope you never have to experience any problems

You sound so dismissive of other vets work by your last remark.

How experienced are you? How many years have you been in practice and how many buns a day do you see?

areia
12-02-2009, 07:48 PM
im in the same boat with linus his dental cost 70 pound ,at the mo its under reckonmendation hes should have dentals at least every 6 months im sure they will have to become more frequent as he gets older, if it was just his teeth nearer the front i would consider conscience dentals but as his bad teeth are very close to the vein at the back, im sticking with GA, personaly i think its 50/50 on both sides of the risks, risk of loseing bun under GA but at least you could take the knowledge they were asleep, or one slip of the tounge or the tool catches a very stressed bun could result in death too, every bun i feel is differant, im sure a vet would be slightly nervous of doing the teeth of a nervous bun while awake, but you can take it home quicker and watch and calm quicker in its own surroundings

areia
12-02-2009, 07:49 PM
ooo where abouts in kent are you ?

rodneyvet
12-02-2009, 07:50 PM
You sound so dismissive of other vets work by your last remark.

How experienced are you? How many years have you been in practice and how many buns a day do you see?

I have a Royal College Certificate in Zoological Medicine (only about 50 in the country) have been practising for 13 years and see plenty of first opinion and referral rabbits. Tomorrow I am operating on a rabbits hip joint. I wasnt being dismissive at all just wishing people all tha best

The Duchess
12-02-2009, 07:54 PM
I have a Royal College Certificate in Zoological Medicine (only about 50 in the country) have been practising for 13 years and see plenty of first opinion and referral rabbits. Tomorrow I am operating on a rabbits hip joint. I wasnt being dismissive at all just wishing people all tha best

Well I think that the folks who are near to you and are able to use your services are very lucky then. I consider myself to be lucky to have two different vets in two different practices whose services I can call upon and trust totally.

I feel sorry for those who don't have such bunny savvy practices.

purplebumble
12-02-2009, 07:55 PM
ive had a few dental buns one of which was at least every month for 18 months that i had her. hers were very bad and she had ga each time. my other bun had a few maybe a month apart maybe three..and he was a teeny mini lop and always had ga and always ended up with stasis....he never had it before he had GAs. bif is my dental bun shes always had GA...but then the vets always think i force ehr to have them im sure as they say the spurs are sooo teeny..but she always needs it shes much better after.
one vet horrifed me as he did a concious dental no pain relief and i went nuts! then it happened again and i saw him and he went off gagged her did her spurs and came back and said she was so easy to do and that by going it he discovered she had a lower jaw....that went backwards way too far so no matter what i feed her shes always going to need dentals.its why shes such a dainty eater and chews her food so long and eats her hay so slowly.

without the concious dental shes not have been discovered the second time when she relaxed more..shes ok with this vet...and she hates men.
i hated this vet but i realise now how much care he actually puts into ehr dentals and he says a few minutes and shes back in ehr box eating hay on the way home..he says shes shy but feisty and quite firendly with him..i agree..i think shes grateful for the relief as the psurs are alays sooo minisucle whereas our old vets used to say they werent worth doing and left them till they did damage and then used a GA:censored:

i give her metacam if shes uncomfortable and she will always make it clear if she is..or maybe shes had such intensive nursing over the almost 3 years weve had that we can read her like a book.

pity i never read bandit like that:cry:

the concious dental cost me £5 on top of the consult fee each time. and she was running around and eating with gusto right away....no gi stasis..no syringe feeding etc...and a very binkyful bif.

i guess if the dentals are more severe then shed have GA but as hers are so often and so small its better that way. neither of my other two dental buns would have managed a concious dental..well oscar might have actually as his were more like bifs..in fact if hed had concious ones he might not have died of gi stasis teeth related. but kibbles would have required a lot of work..much easier and kinder for her to have a GA.

its not an easy thing to accept until you realise its saving your buns life like it has bifs.

marie_kubiak
12-02-2009, 08:02 PM
I completely agree with Rodneyvet. I would not consider for a moment doing a conscious dental. Especially in a sick rabbit. I am much more comfortable when I can do the work properly without stress and pain to the rabbit and have an intravenous line and tube into the trachea to support the rabbit fully and have good control- luxuries that are ignored in a quick cheap conscious job. I have to wonder about the quality of the work done with conscious dentals. I certainly wouldn't be keen to use a high speed burr with a rabbit that is not likely to stay still for too long. I suppose many vets are just clipping the spurs and not actually doing the more time consuming job of reducing crown height and correcting the angle of occlusion of each tooth. Which would give brief relapses in pain and clinical signs but not actually do anything to help correct the problem or slow the progression.
I am sure that owners are finely tuned to their rabbit's behaviour. However, as rodneyvet has already mentioned, studies show that physical restraint and hypnotic state IS stressful and I cannot justify this intense stress. Stress causes release of hormones and chemicals into the blood stream which rapidly affect heart rate, contractility and rhythm. I would suggest anyone that has conscious dentals done asks for a concurrent ECG and watches the trace to realise the true effects on the system.
When I needed dental surgery I was told by the human doctors that they could do the job quicker and better under GA and it would be less stressful for me. And this was with a human consenting to an op with full knowledge of the procedure! I hate to think what goes through the rabbit's mind as it is restrained and the mouth is wrenched open.

honeybunny
12-02-2009, 08:47 PM
Can I ask if you give a rabbit a GA to examine its teeth to see if a dental is needed ?

if not then surely you are putting the animal through stress to examine it..my vet takes such a short time on top of the exam to do the tooth that I cannot see the added stress here..I do accept there are risks..

and if we couldn't do dentals without ga we couldn't keep all the permanent dental rescue buns..we know the other local rescue simply PTS rabbits with spurs..
so take a look at Chrissie who has had regular (and I mean 12 weekly or less)dentals for last 18 months
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y119/HONEYBUN1/chrissie.jpg

or Harley..reg for over 2 years
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y119/HONEYBUN1/Harleya.jpg

or Henry again over 2 years
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y119/HONEYBUN1/Henrya.jpg

or the other 6 dental rabbits we have..that they should have been pts when they first arrived ..the only alternative as our vets charge between £65 and £100 for a GA dental and we couldn't afford to pay for that on a regular basis

abbymarysmokey
12-02-2009, 09:40 PM
I will concede that there may be additional dangers to having a conscious dental if a vet tell me so, but I can't agree with you re. the stress issue because I'm afraid it just isn't true, and as an experienced rabbit owner I feel that I'm in a better position to give a judgment on that matter than any vet, especially if they don't keep rabbits themselves.

FudgeMallow
12-02-2009, 10:11 PM
Ive never had a concious dental done on my 2 dental bunnies and i will say i dont have much experience with rabbits and dont know as much as everyone else on here but what i will say is that if a Vet that has had many years experience with rabbits is confident enough and the owner of the rabbit is confident enough and are aware of all the risks of a concious dental then leave them to it, that is there choice!
No one know my rabbits like i do and unless they spend as much time with them as i do then they dont know what their behaviour is!
If at some time in my bunnies lives they become ill or have a problem that GA may cause them to pass away and my vet (who i completely trust with my bunnies lives) is confident enough to do a concious dental then i will go through with it even if i know the risks!
You are very self-important by the way you write, as if no vet compares to you (im not saying your not a good vet!)

Also are there not the same amount of risk under GA as there are concious? what happens if the vet gets knocked or his hand slips and causes bleeding while under GA? what if the rabbit passes away while under due to an illness?
Both ways there are risks its a 50/50 chance and you have to go with what YOU feel is best for YOUR rabbit and of course what the vet feels is best also!

The people on this forum may not be vets but they have alot of experience with rabbits and i will admit i normally come on here if i find something wrong with the buns before going to the vet (unless its an emergency) and will get some amazing advice and information on what could be wrong!!

Jazzy B Bunny
12-02-2009, 10:15 PM
I'm sorry I didnt mean for this to turn into a bit of an argument :oops: so basicly theres the same risks in both then? Jazz has always recovered well after GA in the past so maybe this is the best for him at the moment? Its also the cost involved aswell.. I am on min wage and only have a part time job so its a struggle :( but I love my bunnies with all my heart and I want the best for them.

Hunnybunny2007
12-02-2009, 10:40 PM
I have 4 rabbits that have had conscious dentals. Two have regular check ups, but now only have treatment every 10 - 12 weeks, whereas at first it was every 4 weeks, so I think my vet does a good job and not just a quick fix:D Now they eat more hay and have an improved diet, which also helps to keep their teeth in check. The cost varies from 5.00 to 10.00. One has had a dental under GA - cost 149.00 needed it doing again 2 weeks later, the 2nd time it was conscious cost 6.00

It depends on the confidence of the vet and also the rabbit, no one knows their rabbits better than their owners:D I have another rabbit that fortunately doesn't have problems, but if he did, he would have to have GA as it takes 2 people to hold him when he has injections:shock:

It's very sad that some rabbits are PTS because their owners/rescues can't afford to have dentals under GA (which is understandable) and conscious ones are not an option at their vets:cry:

FudgeMallow
12-02-2009, 10:41 PM
I'm sorry I didnt mean for this to turn into a bit of an argument :oops: so basicly theres the same risks in both then? Jazz has always recovered well after GA in the past so maybe this is the best for him at the moment? Its also the cost involved aswell.. I am on min wage and only have a part time job so its a struggle :( but I love my bunnies with all my heart and I want the best for them.

Im only on a weekend wage and with a dental bun it is hard going!
Fudges dentals were once a month so i upped her veg intake (due to a lack of hay :roll:) and so far not had a dental since 17th Dec :shock::D
I give her a leaf and a half of spring greens and half a leaf of savoy cabbage and half a leaf of green cabbage occasionally and mint and basil twice a week!
Fingers crossed she doesnt need another anytime soon :) I pay £60 per dental under GA! You get charged more than double the amount i do :shock::shock::shock: Is you vet rabbit savvy? If not id be looking for another vet or ask them if they could reduce the price due to having a dental so often :D

ecudc
12-02-2009, 10:41 PM
yes there is always a risk with both. Vets that do it without a GA are on the rare side & you would want to be absolutely confident in their ability. We are very confident with Chloes vet & I'm currently fostering our newest dental bunny santa.

Because of his jaw one tooth grows completely uncontrolled, it is not just a case of spurs. He'll need it once every 3-4 weeks. He's had two dentals so far, one with GA when being castrated & once without GA. He was completely normal after the non GA dental & very quiet after the GA, although he also had a more serious operation with that. Having had a GA myself once I know how he feels! He's only 4 months & I cannot imagine that monthly GA's for the rest of his life would not seriously impact on his general health & well being as well as being unfundable from the rescue's point of view. He seems fine with the concious dentals, we trust our vet implicitly & infact go further than we need to to use her.

If my bun only needed a dental once or twice a year I'd possibly go down the GA route but 12 GA's a year is just not fair on the rabbit or affordable.

rabshan
12-02-2009, 10:44 PM
One of my bunnies who had serious dental problems had conscious dentals several times (i was talked into this a "f(r)iend" incorrect spelling not a mistake)I watched the precedure being done and was impressed with how simple it was,she had no after effects:)but i went back to her having a GA and luckily no harm had been done:)

Jack's-Jane
12-02-2009, 10:53 PM
I can understand that cost is a factor for Rescues and for Pet owners whose Rabbits need very frequent treatment.
But I am affraid I still cant agree with subjecting a Rabbit to such a stressful proceedure without sedation. My Vet, whom I respect, has the same opinion on this as Rodneyvet and Marie. Their advice and expertise is good enough for me :)

honeybunny
12-02-2009, 11:02 PM
To repeat..i accept there are risks..as there are with a Ga dental ..but I haven't had an answer to the question those vets who say about all the stress involved do you give a Ga before you check a rabbits teeth to establish their condition?

if the answer is no then you are surely putting the rabbit through stress to examine it?..

Azraelm
12-02-2009, 11:06 PM
I think it depends on the individual rabbit- I've had ones that coped well with a conscious dental, and others that the vet reccommended have a GA.

My vet was the same one honeybunny uses I believe, and they are excellent with dental problems.

Jazzy B Bunny
12-02-2009, 11:12 PM
Jazz is such a calm rabbit and will just sit there and let you do what ever to him. :love: My vets refuse a conscious though. Its so hard to make a choice :(

sillyrabbit
13-02-2009, 02:20 AM
I have just booked Beau in for his first dental and my vet said he wouldn't do it conscious, I only asked because I saw it on here people talking about it and can't even remember the reasons he gave now! :) I don't know enough about it all really

I wouldn't be able to put Beau through a conscious dental, but then I know Beau is a very nervous bunny and wouldn't cope well with it

Just wanted to say £140 seems about right to me with GA, I called around all the vets here just out of curiosity and haven't been quoted lower than £140 by any vets

KarenM
13-02-2009, 07:28 AM
I would have to go with what my own vet says and they won't perform conscious dentals either. Bubbles is a sensitive little soul and she got stressed & jumpy just by having her teeth looked at, so I don't think she would be the ideal candidate for a conscious dental anyway.

I paid £60 for burring under GA but I know from reading other threads that cost varies immensely.

SOAD
13-02-2009, 08:15 AM
Well to be totally honest with you I stopped taking any notice of the people who were against conscious dentals after I read this,


Why dont you stick your kitten down a wellie boot and castrate it while you are at it.

Someone who can't manage an adult conversation certainly would not touch any of my animals.





I have had both, my preference is dental with GA, Zippy has approx 30 of them in the last few years and she has had nearly all her teeth remove as some of the roots were growing backwards. The last GA she had my vet said that it is enough now, as her body can not handle any more. Thankfully she only has a couple of teeth come through that are as thick as a quarter of a match stick which can be just snapped off (in fact she does this herself).

I would choose to have conscious dentals with Holly (only they don't really work with her) her one tooth is growing under her tongue, but you can't really get to it properly, she will have to have ga's and I am not expecting her to make many more :cry:

Nibbles was nearly 12 when I lost her and she had conscious dentals because of her age and they were totally fine and I have been there through every single dental and know she was.

NOBODY will tell me what is right for my pets other than me and my vets, my own vet does not do conscious dentals , not because he doesn't agree with them, but because he is not confident. I have to go to another vets for the procedure and my vet knows and agrees with the decision and which ones need it. It actually costs me more for my conscious dentals as the vets I got to for them is all singing all dancing vets, so it isn't the cheapest option for me.


I feel for Jazzy B bunny in this as she only asked for a vet recommendation, before everyone came in giving it loads about what she should and shouldn't do. What I would say hun if I were you, is give the RWA a call and ask for a list of rabbit savvy vets in your area and give them a call and have a chat with some different vets, there is going to be risks with whatever you choose and you do what you feel best. Good luck

Jack's-Jane
13-02-2009, 08:33 AM
Nicola3 is in Plymouth and she has a Dental Bun. Perhaps you could PM her.
Also ShivyRex is in your area so maybe she could suggest other Vets for you to try. :)

rodneyvet
13-02-2009, 09:46 AM
In answer to the previous question, it is impossible to accurately assess everything going on in a rabbits mouth without anaesthesia, no vet will argue with this. (so they all are anaesthetised if i think there is a dental issue). It is impossible to take head radiographs to examine tooth roots without anaesthesia. No vet will argue with this. Marie and I have gone on to say that we believe through scientific study that rabbits get stressed when they dont look it. No vet will argue with this if they decide to go and check the data. My clients know me well and know that i am not in the business of doing a poor job or causing undue stress to my patients. I have seen what happens when these things go wrong. Those were nice rabbit pics posted, they look well. Perhaps I go and try to find the picture of the lungs of a rabbit I saw that drowned in its own blood. As for my "wellie boot "comment. that was to illustrate how outdated I think concious dental procedures are in the advent of modern anaesthesia. Im sorry if it offends but I feel that anyone putting their rabbit through this is acting irresponsibly. That is my opinion and i wont change it. Im also sorry to say that the "I know my rabbit" line doesnt cut it for me either. I have great respect for the input of owners and encourage as much as possible. On issues like this however, If a client can say that if in a rabbits place it wouldnt bother them at all to be restrained, not know what is happening, have a gag placed in their mouths and their teeth trimmed. Then I would urge them to refuse local for their next filling. This thread isnt really going anywhere except to say that there are people who are pro concious dentals and those against. I am strongly against for the outlined reasons. If i have caused anyone offence then I apologise but to me it comes down to 2 choices: pain relief (BEFORE the examination and trimming as well as after), proper examination +/- radiography or manual restraint, no pain relief. This is my last post on the subject. Ive got to go and anaesthetise a rabbit, give it pain relief and remove its hip joint

marie_kubiak
13-02-2009, 09:52 AM
To repeat..i accept there are risks..as there are with a Ga dental ..but I haven't had an answer to the question those vets who say about all the stress involved do you give a Ga before you check a rabbits teeth to establish their condition?

if the answer is no then you are surely putting the rabbit through stress to examine it?..

It depends very much on the case - some have dentals at regular, predicatable intervals and typical symptoms so we know when they need a dental without intraoral examination. Where there is any doubt - in new cases or those that are less predictable then yes they do often get a quick check. However this is done without a gag and cheek dilators to open up the mouth and uses a blunt otoscope end, no noisy machinery, no more restraint than the owner loosely holding them and takes less than 15 seconds so is not comparable to a conscious dental.
Stressy rabbits are usually sedated for examination as there is no point getting them anxious when I am suspicious of dental disease and need to carry out a full examination under GA anyway.

donna-arc
13-02-2009, 10:33 AM
Being the nurse assisting on hundreds of rabbit dentals (we see more than our fair share being the ARC vets) I can't see how a conscious dental can be done as well as ones where the rabbit is anaesthetised - rabbits mouths are so narrow it is very difficult to see into the back even when they are asleep and you can use mouth gags to their full. The tongue needs to pulled out to get right to the back of the mouth too - not something a conscious rabbit would allow.
As has been said - although a rabbit might seem relaxed or 'tranced' blood tests taken for research have shown that rabbits are actually very stressed in this condition.
All the vets at the last RWA conference disagreed VERY stongly with concious dentals.
So,my view on this is GA for dentals for three reasons
1) The vet can do a better job and then hopefully be done less often
2) Not as stressful for the rabbit (even though you think your bun doesn't look stressed, it is!)
3) If a blood vessel was accidentally cut there is a chance the rabbit could be saved (not so likely to cut vessel in first place if bun asleep)

I think a lot of you are missing Rodneyvets point about the kitten in the wellie. It did come across sarcastic but I think it was used as an illustration of how some things that used to be acceptable aren't any more. The rescue I used to volunteer at used to cut front teeth with nail cutters - even though there were cases of teeth shattering upwards into the gums it was the way it had always been done, so must be OK. I am glad to say things in the rabbit world have moved on a lot.

Jazzy B Bunny
13-02-2009, 10:38 AM
seems like the GA is the way to go then? I'm just concerned about him not waking up :(

abbymarysmokey
13-02-2009, 10:40 AM
As has been said - although a rabbit might seem relaxed or 'tranced' blood tests taken for research have shown that rabbits are actually very stressed in this condition.


None of my rabbits have been tranced, I think this is one of the common misconceptions about conscious dentals.

Jack's-Jane
13-02-2009, 10:48 AM
Being the nurse assisting on hundreds of rabbit dentals (we see more than our fair share being the ARC vets) I can't see how a conscious dental can be done as well as ones where the rabbit is anaesthetised - rabbits mouths are so narrow it is very difficult to see into the back even when they are asleep and you can use mouth gags to their full. The tongue needs to pulled out to get right to the back of the mouth too - not something a conscious rabbit would allow.
As has been said - although a rabbit might seem relaxed or 'tranced' blood tests taken for research have shown that rabbits are actually very stressed in this condition.
All the vets at the last RWA conference disagreed VERY stongly with concious dentals.
So,my view on this is GA for dentals for three reasons
1) The vet can do a better job and then hopefully be done less often
2) Not as stressful for the rabbit (even though you think your bun doesn't look stressed, it is!)
3) If a blood vessel was accidentally cut there is a chance the rabbit could be saved (not so likely to cut vessel in first place if bun asleep)

I think a lot of you are missing Rodneyvets point about the kitten in the wellie. It did come across sarcastic but I think it was used as an illustration of how some things that used to be acceptable aren't any more. The rescue I used to volunteer at used to cut front teeth with nail cutters - even though there were cases of teeth shattering upwards into the gums it was the way it had always been done, so must be OK. I am glad to say things in the rabbit world have moved on a lot.

Good post Donna :D

chloaster
13-02-2009, 10:55 AM
NOBODY will tell me what is right for my pets other than me and my vets, my own vet does not do conscious dentals , not because he doesn't agree with them, but because he is not confident.

I think this is often the issue - I don't see the conscious dental as a outdated procedure but more a skill not many vets have.

honeybunny
13-02-2009, 10:56 AM
I think this is often the issue - I don't see the conscious dental as a outdated procedure but more a skill not many vets have.

Agree

an d Jazz bunny if your vet refuses to do them then good..it means he isn't confident enough..but as said before ask around.and ask how many rabbits each vet deals with.
Hope you get your bunny sorted:D

Hunnybunny2007
13-02-2009, 11:24 AM
Like you said this post isn't going anywhere, both sides are trying to justify their actions:?
Like I said I have dental bunnies, one had his done under GA and didn't come around well - he had to have meds to get his guts moving and it took a couple of days for him to start eating properly again, he also lost weight, along with extra visits to the vets for check ups. When he had a conscious dental he was eating hay on the way home, and didn't have any problems at all. So there are good points and bad points, again it's down to the vets confidence.
Rodney, you say you have had to deal with rabbits from other vets that have done conscious dentals, well perhaps they haven't the skills and shouldn't be performing them in the first place:?

honeybunny
13-02-2009, 11:45 AM
Also we are regularly seeing threads on here..and other forums...about rabbits having had a GA and having a tough time getting over it..having to go back to vets, be syringe fed ..wondering if they'll make it or not.

I've never seen a thread about a rabbit having a tough time after a conscious dental:?

And to stress ..again..I think all of us who go down the non GA route have said we know there is a risk ..but there is also a risk doing dentals with GA..hence the consent form being signed..

We have also tried to make it clear that our vets will recommend a GA in cases of extremely hard to handle bunnies or where they feel more invetigation is needed or more intensive work..we have not said NEVER have a GA for dental work
But knowing how many rabbits are needlessly pts due to having bad teeth which their owners cannot afford to have seen to ..I will continue to support the vets which give this other option.

Sooz
13-02-2009, 12:05 PM
Just out of interest, do those people who have rabbits under conscious dentals due to the frequency of dentals needed (i.e. not those with health compromised buns) have them sedated once or twice a year for more thorough work to be done or are they done conscious on every occasion?

Jack's-Jane
13-02-2009, 12:52 PM
Just out of interest, do those people who have rabbits under conscious dentals due to the frequency of dentals needed (i.e. not those with health compromised buns) have them sedated once or twice a year for more thorough work to be done or are they done conscious on every occasion?

Going completely O/T here but I have just read your reason for editing your post............:lol: :lol:

Sorry, it just lightened the tone of this thread for me.......:oops:

*Quietly closes door on way out*.........

Sooz
13-02-2009, 01:09 PM
Going completely O/T here but I have just read your reason for editing your post............:lol: :lol:

Sorry, it just lightened the tone of this thread for me.......:oops:

*Quietly closes door on way out*.........

:lol::lol::lol:

Sadly true though :oops:, hopefully no-one read it before I realised my mistake :oops::lol:

Bavarian Bunny
13-02-2009, 01:19 PM
Penny had a GA dental last year and recovered from it very quickly. Our vet does not like to do conscious dentals because of the risk of injuring the tongue and other soft tissue inside the mouth.

Popsel needed regular dentals for a while, when he was about 10 years old. He had to see the vet every 4 to 8 weeks. This was a different vet, in Germany, and he felt it was too risky to give an elderly bunny a GA so often. Popsel recovered quickly from each dental, but he was very stressed. Luckily his teeth then went back to normal.

I don't know what's better. I hate going to the dentist and would prefer to have a GA, my teeth are very sensitive. I am not sure whether the removal of spurs causes any pain to the rabbit, or whether the stress is just from being there and having something shoved into the mouth. Popsel's spurs were just clipped off regularly, whereas Penny's molars were filed down, which probably takes a lot longer than clipping.

140 Pounds is definitely too much, though. :shock:

areia
13-02-2009, 01:24 PM
i have every empathy for any animal needing dentals i wish i had the option of GA im really ill when i go to mine

i cant even handle sedation

i think this thread will be to agree to disagree works for some and not for others either way there are risks on both sides no matter what

Lspacehopper
13-02-2009, 01:58 PM
Let's say a rabbit does have to have regular dentals and they're being done under GA. Let's say the rabbit is really starting to suffer and is struggling to recover after each dental.....not eating....heading for stasis etc

Would the vets recommend at this point that no more GAs are given and it would be kinder to put the rabbit to sleep, or would they then consider the conscious dental, if the rabbit appears to be a chilled out enough bun?

abbymarysmokey
13-02-2009, 02:14 PM
Just out of interest, do those people who have rabbits under conscious dentals due to the frequency of dentals needed (i.e. not those with health compromised buns) have them sedated once or twice a year for more thorough work to be done or are they done conscious on every occasion?

Abby is sometimes done under GA...these occasions are usually when I have to drop her off at the vets before work because I'm busy...and the stress of being there has taken it's toll by the time the vet deals with her, so she's too jumpy to have it done conscious.

On the occasions I have taken her in for a normal appointment, she has always been able to have it done conscious.

Abby is a very nervous, timid rabbit, but is very tolerant of having her mouth examined because it's become such a common occurance for her. Rabbits aren't so stupid that they would put up with it if it was causing them pain.

I personally think that rabbit teeth are more similar to horses teeth than human teeth. Obviously there is more room to work inside a horses mouth, but horses regularly have their teeth floated without GA or pain relief, and I have never seen signs of pain during or after a horse has had dental work either, so I don't see why a rabbit should be different :?

Jack's-Jane
13-02-2009, 02:27 PM
I think the point that might be being missed here is that there are some Vets who are highly skilled in anaesthesia including for severely debilitated Rabbits
It is not true that an elderly of health compromised Rabbit cant tolerate a GA. I am sure one of our Vets will correct me if I am wrong, but after careful risk assessment appropriate pre-anaesthesia treatment can be given, the most suitable GA drugs selected (its not a one size fits all for the choice of GA given )
Intubation and Heart/BP /Temperature monitoring during the GA then careful and patient specific post op care given.

Rabbit anaesthesia is still much feared by many Vets and I think maybe the two Vets who have given their input here are far more experienced and qualified in that area of Rabbit medicine than a Vet who would prefer to risk a conscious GA.

I am not trying to tell anyone what they should do. All I am saying is that I am 100% comfortable with my views on this and the choices I make for my Rabbits :D

Jazzy I hope that you and your Vet can work together to obtain the best outcome for Jazz's ongoing treatment.
Lots of luck :wave:

Ben's mum
13-02-2009, 02:29 PM
Rabbit anaesthesia is still much feared by many Vets and I think maybe the two Vets who have given their input here are far more experienced and qualified in that area of Rabbit medicine than a Vet who would prefer to risk a conscious GA.

But how can you know that when the latter 'type' of vets have had no chance to defend their argument on here?

Jack's-Jane
13-02-2009, 02:31 PM
But how can you know that when the latter 'type' of vets have had no chance to defend their argument on here?

They could always do so if they so wished :D

Note I used the words 'I think' not 'I know' :D

SOAD
13-02-2009, 02:36 PM
Let's say a rabbit does have to have regular dentals and they're being done under GA. Let's say the rabbit is really starting to suffer and is struggling to recover after each dental.....not eating....heading for stasis etc

Would the vets recommend at this point that no more GAs are given and it would be kinder to put the rabbit to sleep, or would they then consider the conscious dental, if the rabbit appears to be a chilled out enough bun?


Yeah this is what I don't understand :?

I have not read such rot to be honest :lol:, it stresses a rabbit out having consious dentals, yeah no :censored: sherlock :lol:, it also stresses them out going to the vets in general. When Nibbles had hers, yeah she was stressed but not going to die at any second stressed, it was over within about a minute (actually less than that) and we had a stamp of a foot back in the carrier, nothing more than that. You could argue she was in pain? Yeah maybe so, however she would eat straight after, yet not before so she would be in more pain prior :? so it elivated the pain not caused anymore.

I personally hate dentist, I get totally stressed out when having a my teeth done and it hurts like hell, so because I get so stress I might opt for the put to sleep option too :lol:

There might be a complication and there may be pain afterwards, isn't this true for every neuter we have, yet we still have them, in fact that causes more stress than anything else, yet this is ok? :?

If Holly could have consious dentals I would choose them over GA, I have no choice, but I am under no illusions that she could go under the GA, she is a sickly bun.

Now I might be tired (in fact I know I am) however if I decided to take notice of what you were saying and say Holly could have consious dentals and I changed my mind because of what I read on here and went for GA, say if she then died under GA, I would actually be after blood.

However you're right, I have to wade through all the posts on here about buns having consious dentals and it's all been done so wrong their lungs have filled with blood, yet I have never seen a death under GA, doh how could I be so stupid thank you for showing me the light and the error of my ways :roll:

We could get back t the olden day then and just put them to sleep at the sign of any illness, they would never ever suffer stress at all then :D

abbymarysmokey
13-02-2009, 02:41 PM
Jane, you yourself have posted on here about nearly losing rabbits after GA dentals, so not sure what your point is :?

Jack's-Jane
13-02-2009, 02:44 PM
Jane, you yourself have posted on here about nearly losing rabbits after GA dentals, so not sure what your point is :?

My point is that I personally would not put any of my Rabbits through a conscious Dental.
Its none of my business what anyone else chooses to do :)

SOAD
13-02-2009, 02:57 PM
They could always do so if they so wished :D

Note I used the words 'I think' not 'I know' :D

Well I am sure mine would, but my vet would be fully booked today and everyday and not be able to sit and look at posts on the internet all day :lol::lol::lol:

Lucy
13-02-2009, 03:07 PM
I watched a bun we had in have a conscious dental. The vet did nick her cheek but she stopped the bleed very quickly and the rabbit was fine. She was a sickly rabbit and I don't think she coud have tolerated regular ga's. I am in favour of it having seen it first hand.

Sooz
13-02-2009, 03:07 PM
I've got to say I'm disappointed that what could have been a very useful and informative thread has turned into such a childish affair. I had been enjoying reading peoples opinions on the subject but I think I'll not bother now the mud slinging has started. :?

Thanks to those who have had something constructive to input and I hope a suitable solution is found.

*walks out whilst still relatively unscathed*

Tamsin
13-02-2009, 03:14 PM
It's good to have options and hear different opinions so people can make up their own minds - lets keep it calm though :D

I've had both done in the past. The particular bun was having regular dental with GA and having to spend the night at the vet to get over it/start eating again. He then developed snuffles which added to the risk of GA. Tried a conscious dental and he was home and eating straight afterwards and there was no decreased time between treatments so presumably it was as effective as the one given with GA.

Now I'm not saying concious isn't stressful or it's always the way to go but listening to the anecdotal evidence it does suggest to me that in some cases people have found it a better option.

It can be pretty confusing when you've got two vets that have totally opposite opinions :?

Tam

Angie65
13-02-2009, 03:15 PM
This is something that interests me, as I have a dental nethie. She had her first dental at 11 weeks of age. She's recently had another that was combined with a spay. They have been several months apart, so I am reasonably happy with it being done under GA while the vet is happy, but I am worried about the long term affects of GA.

Her brother hasn't yet had a dental, but he is only marginally bigger than a hamster so I am extremely concerned about putting him under. Even for a neuter:?

SOAD
13-02-2009, 03:34 PM
Honestly I might be one of the ones that is losing it a bit, so I apologise for that, but don't like to be made to feel that I don't do my best for my bunnies or that my vets are "sub-standard", my buns are my babies I am like an over-protective Mom if I feel attacked I fight back, doubled with not having slept last night is making me a bit unhinged :shock:. Anyway I am off, I know I do that right thing and that is what matters to me. :wave:

Lspacehopper
13-02-2009, 03:52 PM
Anyway I am off, I know I do that right thing and that is what matters to me. :wave:


I think that is the crux of the matter. You and many others do what you know is the right thing for your rabbit.

abbymarysmokey
13-02-2009, 03:53 PM
Honestly I might be one of the ones that is losing it a bit, so I apologise for that, but don't like to be made to feel that I don't do my best for my bunnies or that my vets are "sub-standard", my buns are my babies I am like an over-protective Mom if I feel attacked I fight back, doubled with not having slept last night is making me a bit unhinged :shock:. Anyway I am off, I know I do that right thing and that is what matters to me. :wave:

Ditto

The thing that really worries me though, is the fact that some contributers to this thread have made conscious dentals sound so awful that death would seem a better alternative...How many rabbit owners will read this thread and get their buns PTS if they can't afford the cost of regular GA dentals? :cry:

Jack's-Jane
13-02-2009, 04:02 PM
Ditto

The thing that really worries me though, is the fact that some contributers to this thread have made conscious dentals sound so awful that death would seem a better alternative...How many rabbit owners will read this thread and get their buns PTS if they can't afford the cost of regular GA dentals? :cry:
So should I lie and say I agree with it then :?
All I have said is what I believe is right for my Rabbits. No-one need take any notice of me at all.

abbymarysmokey
13-02-2009, 04:09 PM
So should I lie and say I agree with it then :?
All I have said is what I believe is right for my Rabbits. No-one need take any notice of me at all.

It wasn't actually you who I was referring to Jane

rodneyvet in particular has been very OTT with his comments and has shown a blatent disregard of the experiences of numerous pet owners on this thread who KNOW that conscious dentals are not akin to whacking an animal's testicles off without GA...But would an inexperienced rabbit owner know this, or would it terrify them into having their pets PTS?...or worse still, leave them without treatment, in pain and unable to eat properly? :?

Jack's-Jane
13-02-2009, 04:13 PM
It wasn't actually you who I was referring to Jane

rodneyvet in particular has been very OTT with his comments and has shown a blatent disregard of the experiences of numerous pet owners on this thread who KNOW that conscious dentals are not akin to whacking an animal's testicles off without GA...But would an inexperienced rabbit owner know this, or would it terrify them into having their pets PTS?...or worse still, leave them without treatment, in pain and unable to eat properly? :?

Oh right, Forum induced paranoia on my part then !! :lol:

If I had concerns about one of RVs posts I'd PM him about it. Infact, that is exactly what I did do a few weeks ago.
He doesn't bite, honest !! ;)

abbymarysmokey
13-02-2009, 04:19 PM
If I had concerns about one of RVs posts I'd PM him about it. Infact, that is exactly what I did do a few weeks ago.
He doesn't bite, honest !! ;)

I'm not sure what good PMing somebody will do when the damage has already been done, and their comments are in black and white for the whole of internet-land to view. I really hope no rabbits are condemned to die because of these comments.

Jazzy B Bunny
13-02-2009, 04:46 PM
Ive made up my mind, I will continue with the GAs until the vet thinks he's had enough, then I'll search for a vet who does conscious dentals.

Stator
13-02-2009, 05:00 PM
Ive made up my mind, I will continue with the GAs until the vet thinks he's had enough, then I'll search for a vet who does conscious dentals.

Is it the Estover vet you are currently using?
They can be rather pricey but I love the fact that they are open late and weekends :)

Jazzy B Bunny
13-02-2009, 05:19 PM
I use the practice at plympton but it's the same as estover. Yeah eclipse went there as an emergency once :)

Jack's-Jane
13-02-2009, 05:33 PM
I'm not sure what good PMing somebody will do when the damage has already been done, and their comments are in black and white for the whole of internet-land to view. I really hope no rabbits are condemned to die because of these comments.

I dont think that will happen. How many times on here are there threads with strongly opposing views and posts from folk disagreeing with something a Vet has prescribed. I do that often enough !!
Rescues have posted both for and against Conscious Dentals. Those pro them obviously use Vets of the same opinion. So even though the specific Vet may not be on here to comment its obvious they exist :D
Like so many things in both human and animal medicine there will be differing opinions and advice given from the Professionals. What I believe is important is that we each have a good working relationship with a Vet we trust. Then any decisions we make for our Rabbits will not be based solely on what we may read onthe internet, but we will discuss things in full with the Vet we know and go with what we (our vet and ourself) feel is right.

Gawd, did any of that make sense.........:?

Hunnybunny2007
13-02-2009, 05:54 PM
Twinkle is my dental bun, it was discovered after she went into stassis on New Years day 2008, after a trip to the emergency vet, and loads of advice from Jane and Sooz, Twinkle survived:D She had to go to my vets the next day, and the vet advised against a GA due to the stassis, so Twinkle had a conscious dental. She had another approx a month later and another in May, her last one was in August, she has been checked today and needed no treatment.
So I am pleased that she didn't have to go under a GA at all, on each occasion she was home and eating as normal, she is now bonded and Milo has to go with her for her check ups as he frets, so again I'm grateful she has conscious dentals as she is only away from him for a few minutes then straight back into the pet carrier, so neither get stressed.
Sooty is our other dental bun, who is also bonded, he has 4-6 week check ups/conscious dentals and Honey has to go with him, otherwise they get stressed when apart.
I guess what I'm trying to say although one rabbit has a few minutes of discomfort, having a conscious dental - it is better than 2 rabbits being stressed for a day while one is at the vets:?

All my buns are now on pellets and eat loads of hay which obviously helps, Twinkle and Sooty and Martha who has had a conscious dental were all on muesli before coming to me and didn't seem to know what hay was:D

Jazzy B Bunny
13-02-2009, 07:22 PM
When Jazz goes in for a GA Gizmo stays at the vets with him :)

Jazzy B Bunny
13-02-2009, 07:23 PM
Is it the Estover vet you are currently using?
They can be rather pricey but I love the fact that they are open late and weekends :)

Do you use them? :) The vet who normally see's my buns is Kate :)

Stator
13-02-2009, 07:27 PM
Do you use them? :) The vet who normally see's my buns is Kate :)

Yep but I don't know which specific vet's I've seen as they have a lot of them :shock:

They all seem to know about rabbits though, they always ask me about food, suggested neutering and vaccinations at the right intervals and recommend panacur etc and when I took roo because she stopped eating they did all the usual things that are recommended on here :)

Jazzy B Bunny
13-02-2009, 07:30 PM
Yep, I was very impressed when I took Eclipse up there at 9pm on a saturday night due to statis.. very professional. Are you a member of the RWA? If so the little book you get with it is writtem by Caroline Bower (?) She is what I assume to be the 'head vet' at the one in Plympton she's rather rabbit savvy :)

Thumpinbun
13-02-2009, 11:38 PM
I have 6, soon to be 7 dental bunnies. They are all so stressed by having their dental work done conciously that they are eating in the carriers on the way home :)

I have only ever had two of my bunnies given a GA for dental work, the first one died, the second took over a week to recover properly. It goes without saying that neither of the practices concerned will ever be allowed near any of my pets again.

As well as rabbits, guinea pigs also tend to have similar dental problems. I know that there are hundreds of guinea pigs alive today that have had concious dentals and their mouths are smaller than those of most rabbits.

I believe it all comes down to confidence, my vet is confident that she can do concious dentals and I have condfidence in her that she does what is best for my pets. I know that if she thought it was not in their best interests she would say so.

rebeccavet
04-03-2009, 11:53 PM
Would just like to add my 2 penny-worth. I am a vet 12 years qualified working in general practice in Leamington Spa. I have been clipping rabbits molars conscious for the last 8 years and have never had any of the theoretical problems stated. I have kept lots of rabbits from being PTSed due to tooth disease by clipping their teeth every 3-4 weeks. This prevents the overgrown molars pushing further through jawbone as they grind together during eating, and in my experience halts the progression of dental disease far more than clipping under general every 3 months or so. Since rabbit teeth can grow at a rate of 1/2mm every 2 days, three months' growth is 23mm or more. Thus, I do not think that clipping less often than every 3-6 weeks can slow or halt the progression of dental disease.
My clients do not have the luxury of being able to afford a referral practice for their rabbits. I have to combine practicality with care and service. I do not compromise on welfare for my patients. I have spoken to Paul Flecknell, MA VetMB, PhD, DipECVAA, DipECLAM, DLAS, MRCVS- one of the UKs top rabbit vets and honoured amongst veterinary surgeons- about conscious molar clipping and whether he thinks this is acceptable and causes too much stress or damage to teeth. His reply was that he felt it WAS an acceptable practice and theoretical risks are rarely realised.
It is true that occasional bleeding occurs when clipping a conscious patient. I use a cheek spreader only and not a gag, and clip the teeth by a combination of visualisation with an auroscope and 'feel'. When bleeding occurs, even when it looks profuse, it can be stopped easily with pressure from a cotton bud and the rabbit goes home and eats without problems. I have seen far more bleeding from a badly-used dental rasp under GA than from a conscious dental. I have NEVER seen a rabbit bleed to death or 'choke on its own blood' and I wonder how one can positively diagnose pneumonia from blood aspiration and differentiate it from pasteurella (which is rife amongst rabbits).
I am also very straightforward with my clients. I put patient welfare before my concern for my client's feelings on some occasions. I honestly believe there is a place for conscious tooth-clipping in general practice. ANY rabbit that enters a veterinary practice is stressed but I aim to minimise that by keeping my procedure brief and non-life threatening, providing pain relief if required and using good handling techniques. The risk of death for rabbits under general anesthetic is quoted at more than 2%. I have not yet had a rabbit die during or immediately after a conscious dental. The discomfort suffered is transient and clipping of the tooth does not seem to cause infection or necessitate extraction. Splintering is far less common in molars than incisors.
I would not belittle anyone who felt they wanted to carry out dentals only under GA but feel a more flexible approach is helpful when dealing with the cost and risk of carrying out dentals at the frequency (every 3-6 weeks) required to prevent molar overgrowth in rabbits with grade 2-4 tooth disease.

Jazzy B Bunny
05-03-2009, 12:02 AM
Thanks for your input... thinking realisticly I will have to search for a vet willing to do a concious dental as I cant keep paying up to £140 every 4 weeks. My vets refuse to do them concious as they think the risks are too high.

Jack's-Jane
05-03-2009, 07:47 AM
Would just like to add my 2 penny-worth. I am a vet 12 years qualified working in general practice in Leamington Spa. I have been clipping rabbits molars conscious for the last 8 years and have never had any of the theoretical problems stated. I have kept lots of rabbits from being PTSed due to tooth disease by clipping their teeth every 3-4 weeks. This prevents the overgrown molars pushing further through jawbone as they grind together during eating, and in my experience halts the progression of dental disease far more than clipping under general every 3 months or so. Since rabbit teeth can grow at a rate of 1/2mm every 2 days, three months' growth is 23mm or more. Thus, I do not think that clipping less often than every 3-6 weeks can slow or halt the progression of dental disease.
My clients do not have the luxury of being able to afford a referral practice for their rabbits. I have to combine practicality with care and service. I do not compromise on welfare for my patients. I have spoken to Paul Flecknell, MA VetMB, PhD, DipECVAA, DipECLAM, DLAS, MRCVS- one of the UKs top rabbit vets and honoured amongst veterinary surgeons- about conscious molar clipping and whether he thinks this is acceptable and causes too much stress or damage to teeth. His reply was that he felt it WAS an acceptable practice and theoretical risks are rarely realised.
It is true that occasional bleeding occurs when clipping a conscious patient. I use a cheek spreader only and not a gag, and clip the teeth by a combination of visualisation with an auroscope and 'feel'. When bleeding occurs, even when it looks profuse, it can be stopped easily with pressure from a cotton bud and the rabbit goes home and eats without problems. I have seen far more bleeding from a badly-used dental rasp under GA than from a conscious dental. I have NEVER seen a rabbit bleed to death or 'choke on its own blood' and I wonder how one can positively diagnose pneumonia from blood aspiration and differentiate it from pasteurella (which is rife amongst rabbits).
I am also very straightforward with my clients. I put patient welfare before my concern for my client's feelings on some occasions. I honestly believe there is a place for conscious tooth-clipping in general practice. ANY rabbit that enters a veterinary practice is stressed but I aim to minimise that by keeping my procedure brief and non-life threatening, providing pain relief if required and using good handling techniques. The risk of death for rabbits under general anesthetic is quoted at more than 2%. I have not yet had a rabbit die during or immediately after a conscious dental. The discomfort suffered is transient and clipping of the tooth does not seem to cause infection or necessitate extraction. Splintering is far less common in molars than incisors.
I would not belittle anyone who felt they wanted to carry out dentals only under GA but feel a more flexible approach is helpful when dealing with the cost and risk of carrying out dentals at the frequency (every 3-6 weeks) required to prevent molar overgrowth in rabbits with grade 2-4 tooth disease.

Thanks for your input from the other side of the argument so-to-speak :D
Whilst I am only a Rabbit care giver and not in any way a qualified Vetinarian I remain 100% against conscious dentals for the reasons I have already mentioned earlier in this thread. I am not qualified to judge those who think it acceptable to have conscious dentals done on a Rabbit but for my Rabbits it wont happen. Cost should not dictate what I personally believe to be my Rabbits welfare and I know I am fortunate in having a Vet who is generous with discounts!! I am very lucky :)

Good luck in your search for a Vet who will provide the service you require Jazzy :wave:

honeybunny
05-03-2009, 10:12 AM
looking at it in purely cost terms..not ideal I know but what most people have to consider..

We do not pts dental rabbits..but if we had to have ga dentals done we would have to, as a lot of rescues do.
So Simple question...
Are you members who are completely against conscious dentals saying that I should have had Hettie, Harley, Levi in my siggy and co all pts rather than them having had a conscious dental every few weeks for the last 2 and a half years?

abbymarysmokey
05-03-2009, 10:22 AM
I think rebecca makes the excellent point that conscious dentals enable work to be done much more frequently if required.

Jack's-Jane
05-03-2009, 10:39 AM
My personal albeit unqualified opininon is that I think it wrong to put a prey animal through the level of stress a conscious Dental involves.
To demonstrate how strongly I feel about this and how wrong I personally think conscious Dentals are had my Jack required Dentals every 3-4 weeks I would have always requested a GA and when it became unfare to keep putting him under GA 'yes' I would have had him PTS.

I know many people on here realise how much Jack meant to me and he always will. So I use him as an example here to state that in my personal opinion I do think conscious Dentals are wrong even if PTS is the only option.

I am not judging anyone else and will agree to differ with all of you who think I am wrong :)

abbymarysmokey
05-03-2009, 10:41 AM
My personal albeit unqualified opininon is that I think it wrong to put a prey animal through the level of stress a conscious Dental involves.


And you would know this how? Have you ever seen a conscious dental being done or is it just your preconceived idea of what it involves?

Jack's-Jane
05-03-2009, 10:42 AM
And you would know this how? Have you ever seen a conscious dental being done or is it just your preconceived idea of what it involves?

Yes, I have seen a conscious Dental done.

abbymarysmokey
05-03-2009, 10:44 AM
Yes, I have seen a conscious Dental done.

In which case you will know that it is no more stressful than any other trip to the vets :)

Tell you what...how about we never take our rabbits to the vets in case it causes them stress? :?

Lucy
05-03-2009, 10:46 AM
I think rebeccavet would be the person who has done concious dentals on our rabbits, and I can say that she was great. She was really informative and helpful. The procedure was done quickly and the rabbits did not seem in any way stressed any more so than just being taken out and examined normally to be honest. Compare that to some of the post GA reactions we see, and there is no doubt in my mind that concious dentals are the best thing for the rabbit.

Tracy
05-03-2009, 10:49 AM
I think this has to be taken on a case by case basis. Whilst conscious dentals are the way forward for some, they may not be for others.

I personally am with Jane on this and would not put my bunny Herbie through a conscious dental. It is not so much the actual procedure, but the stress that I feel Herbie would be placed under.

Herbie has congenital dental disease which came to light when he was just over a year old. His problems are with his cheek teeth. He has been having regular dentals for the past 3 years. To begin with the dentals were every 6 weeks and that kept the condition under control. About 18 months ago the condition worsened and the dentals became closer together. At worst his dentals have been only 2 weeks apart. Herbie was referred to a rabbit specialist, one of the top in the field of rabbit medicine. Even with dentals of only 2 weeks apart, the specialist did not recommend conscious dentals, but instead to carry on with dentals under GA whenever Herbie needed them. The specialist said that Herbie was at the peak of his dental disease and if I could get him through this bad patch then the dentals would eventually get further apart again as tooth growth changed and teeth that were regularly burred stopped growing. This is indeed what is happening, a year on I am seeing some improvement and dentals, although still erratic, are beginning to get further apart. We still have a long way to go with Herbie, but there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Herbie bounces back after having a GA, which is why I can continue down this route. By early evening he is up and eating and you would never guess that he had been under GA earlier in the day. For me it is probably a combination of having a bunny that bounces back so well and an excellent vet that makes VERY regular GA dentals both possible and preferable.

honeybunny
05-03-2009, 10:50 AM
But this is where I think the wrong impression is being given as to level of stress involved.
If a vet is confident and competent at conscious dentals..the stress the rabbit endures and timescale is no different to some normal mouth inspections ..or general health checks
Of course if a vet does take a long time and causes the bun unneccessary stress and/or great discomfort then..as with any other procedure don't use that vet again

All this talk of stress involved is greatly exaggerated and I've been having buns teeth sorted consciously for years

Taking a rabbit to a vet and leaving it there..in a strange place..then it being got ready for a GA.all that handling by strangers...then it recovering in a strange place...being checked by strangers and maybe having dogs barking nearby...is much more stressful than a quick dental without the ga:?:?

Jack's-Jane
05-03-2009, 10:55 AM
In which case you will know that it is no more stressful than any other trip to the vets :)

Tell you what...how about we never take our rabbits to the vets in case it causes them stress? :?

As I say Amy, I am not judging others who disagree with me and of course I am not suggesting that no Rabbit is taken to a Vet.
There is a marked difference between the stress of a Vet trip to the stress of a Rabbit having their mouth forced open, held that way and then having their teeth clipped.
To me the two things are completely different.
I cant see much point in my posting on here any more cos I cant say what some of you appear to want to hear................

So we will agree to differ :)

honeybunny
05-03-2009, 11:00 AM
Again I would ask..how do most vets inspect the buns teeth before deciding if dental work is needed..
if a rabbit goes to a vet with suspected teeth spurs..are they always put under GA to have a quick look..or does the vet do this while the bun is conscious?

I suspect for a quick examination the bun is not put out..and a conscious dental is no different..and if done by a decent vet..is much less stressful than a badly carried out exam.

abbymarysmokey
05-03-2009, 11:08 AM
TBH Jane I would be glad to agree to disagree if I thought your opinion was harmless, but I know lots of rabbits are PTS because of this even if people won't admit to it.

I personally don't value my opinion over the life of my rabbits, and am happy to try anything that might give them extra months/years of good-quality life :)

Jack's-Jane
05-03-2009, 11:11 AM
TBH Jane I would be glad to agree to disagree if I thought your opinion was harmless, but I know lots of rabbits are PTS because of this even if people won't admit to it.

I personally don't value my opinion over the life of my rabbits, and am happy to try anything that might give them extra months/years of good-quality life :)

I think to imply that I value my opinion above that of my Rabbits life is a very unfare remark.
The opinions I am guided by are those of Vets I know, respect and trust.

honeybunny
05-03-2009, 11:27 AM
Just to make clear again
I think those of us who have conscious dentals done would not say a ga dental is never needed if the work to be done is extensive

But..how many people have we seen on here who have lost their rabbits having GA dentals carried out?
I've never known of anyone lose a bun to a conscious dental.

Again..and this is relavent to the stress issue..how many rabbits having had a ga dental then need extra support with syringe feeding, pain killers and gut stimulants to get them through the next week?
This has never been neccessary for any of our conscious dentals.

Would be interesting to have a poll carried out:?

Jazzy B Bunny
05-03-2009, 11:36 AM
Well for me eventually I will have to find a ver willing to do a concious dental as I can't continue to fork out up to £140 every month as I'm only on a part time wage.. I'm lucky as yesterday as my mum lent me some money, but that isnt always possible. I'm guessing its going to be very hard to find a vet to do one round here as general opinion is the concious ones are too risky (acording to my vets) I'm lucky in a way as Jazz normally bounces back after a GA but I know this might not always be the case. I hate leaving him in the vets all day. :(

Hugo's There
05-03-2009, 11:36 AM
I have never had conscious dentals done as thankfully I have never needed to consider them. I know my vets are against them but there is a very good vet in reachable distance that does do them.

If it was my bunnies only option I would definately not rule them out as a possibility, however with the treatment of all my bunnies I would definately have to take into account what I believed my bunny could cope with in terms of treatment. What is right for one bunny is not necessarilty right for another bunny in the same situation..

I know this doesn't really help the discussion as its a bit "sitting on the fence" but I just wanted to say for me it would be very dependant on what I believed each individual bunny could cope with :)

willowholly
05-03-2009, 05:13 PM
I lost my bun many years ago under a GA for a dental.He was having them too often and couldn't cope.He was only 18mths.Out of interest,when is it ok to have the teeth removed?Touch a very large piece of wood,ive not had a dental bun since.

Doncat5
05-03-2009, 06:01 PM
I have to agree with the pro conscious dental side. Having been with Jill, on several occasions, with a car full of dental buns, I can honestly say I've never seen one of them looked stressed. Even when my own rabbit had his teeth done, he was happily munching hay on the journey home. If the teeth need a 'severe' dental then I agree, using a GA would probably be beneficial, but it seems the majority of dental buns just have small spurs, a lot of which can be removed and with a changed diet, be prevented (my own rabbit only need 2 then no more). Most rescues couldnt possibly afford to pay for a repeated GA dentals and personally, theres no way I'd let my own rabbit go under every 2 weeks even if I could afford it.... so I think its definatley an area where the choice is up to the idividual, we can all agree to disagree. It seems nothing about keeping rabbits is simple. :)

Santa
05-03-2009, 07:09 PM
I suppose many vets are just clipping the spurs and not actually doing the more time consuming job of reducing crown height and correcting the angle of occlusion of each tooth. Which would give brief relapses in pain and clinical signs but not actually do anything to help correct the problem or slow the progression.

This is the thing that 'worries' me as much as the stress issue - Santa is a dental bun and has all her dentals under GA. I believe that by taking the time to do what you have described, the progress of her dental disease (both spurs and tooth root overgrowth) is much slower than if she was just having them clipped. This aside, on the "each case on its own merits" issue, there is no way I would let Santa have a conscious dental; at 900g and a wiggler the risks are just too high for my liking!

I wonder if any of the vets/owners with 'regular' dental patients (either conscious or GA) could say whether the frequency between dentals seems to become less over time? I certainly find this to be the case with Santa even though she is 6 now, and I'm wondering if it is for the very reason described? Be interesting to hear if there is any difference in the long term prognosis on both sides - although I do recognise that for some rescue buns there may not be a long-term if they didn't have a vet who would perform a conscious dental.

It's no wonder owners get confused when there's clear disagreement even within the profession!

Nix
05-03-2009, 07:13 PM
Ziggy has needed less dentals over time but his teeth are extremely bad - basically they are starting to fall out now.

There was a big debate about this at last year's RWAF conference.

I am a fan of conscious dentals but they do not work for every bun. As people have said, you can't do as thorough a job. My dentla buns have fairly regular conscious dentals every few months and then a dental under GA every once in a while to tidy up and be more thorough.

I have had much better recovery from conscious dentals than when it's coupled with a GA, which is why I like them.

I think you need a vet who is experienced in conscious dentals and knows their limitations. I certainly don't think every vet should be offering them if they are confident or knowledgeable about them.

Nix
05-03-2009, 07:15 PM
P.S. my vet does sort out angles of occlusion etc during conscious - although lets me know if he thinks he has not been able to sort it as thoroughly as he would like so we can keep an eye on it.

Tracy
05-03-2009, 07:50 PM
I wonder if any of the vets/owners with 'regular' dental patients (either conscious or GA) could say whether the frequency between dentals seems to become less over time? I certainly find this to be the case with Santa even though she is 6 now, and I'm wondering if it is for the very reason described? Be interesting to hear if there is any difference in the long term prognosis on both sides - although I do recognise that for some rescue buns there may not be a long-term if they didn't have a vet who would perform a conscious dental.


Herbie is a complicated dental bun. His dental disease got worse at about age 3. He is now 4 and a half and the dentals are starting to get further apart. The xrays taken by the specialist showed that one tooth had already 'died' and this is what she expects to eventually happen to the other affected teeth which are subjected to regular burring. As far as I understand, it is the burring action which causes the change to the growth of the tooth and clipping would not have the same effect. :?

Herbie could not be done consciously. His treatment is not a straight forward matter of clipping off spurs, but one which requires burring and thorough examination. I have no alternative but to have this done under GA.

honeybunny
05-03-2009, 09:26 PM
To demonstrate how strongly I feel about this and how wrong I personally think conscious Dentals are had my Jack required Dentals every 3-4 weeks I would have always requested a GA and when it became unfare to keep putting him under GA 'yes' I would have had him PTS.
[/B] I do think conscious Dentals are wrong even if PTS is the only option.


I can't believe that you think we should put to sleep all our dental bunnies rather than let them continue to have conscious dentals....:shock::shock:

Jazzy B Bunny
05-03-2009, 09:31 PM
I couldn't imagine having jazz pts because of his teeth! Unless he was in severe pain.

angeleyes
05-03-2009, 09:35 PM
This has been an interesting read having just had Lionel & Lolly back after both having dentals under GA today.
I don't know if my vets do concious ones, i will ask next time, however i do not think i would want to put these 2 under GA on a regular basis, what if they needed it done every 4 weeks :shock: Plus with Lionel as tiny as he is i wonder how long their bodies would cope with having GA pumped into them?

Jack's-Jane
05-03-2009, 09:51 PM
I can't believe that you think we should put to sleep all our dental bunnies rather than let them continue to have conscious dentals....:shock::shock:

I would not dream of telling anyone else what to do with their Rabbits.
I am just stating what I do with mine.
I accept that some people dont see a problem with Conscious Dentals. I do and nothing that has been said on here or via some rather acerbic PMs I have received will change my mind.
But nothing is set in stone and should the Vets I know and trust have a change of opinion I will go with their advice,

:wave:

Jack's-Jane
05-03-2009, 09:52 PM
This has been an interesting read having just had Lionel & Lolly back after both having dentals under GA today.
I don't know if my vets do concious ones, i will ask next time, however i do not think i would want to put these 2 under GA on a regular basis, what if they needed it done every 4 weeks :shock: Plus with Lionel as tiny as he is i wonder how long their bodies would cope with having GA pumped into them?

Christabel is 100% against conscious Dentals and so is Wendy :)

lilbun
05-03-2009, 10:01 PM
This has been an interesting read having just had Lionel & Lolly back after both having dentals under GA today.
I don't know if my vets do concious ones, i will ask next time, however i do not think i would want to put these 2 under GA on a regular basis, what if they needed it done every 4 weeks :shock: Plus with Lionel as tiny as he is i wonder how long their bodies would cope with having GA pumped into them?

Just to stick my Oar in: We have done GA dentals on a couple of buns at 4-6 week intervals for years without any problems

angeleyes
05-03-2009, 10:11 PM
Just to stick my Oar in: We have done GA dentals on a couple of buns at 4-6 week intervals for years without any problems

Thats good to know thanks :wave:

angeleyes
05-03-2009, 10:12 PM
Christabel is 100% against conscious Dentals and so is Wendy :)

Also good to know thanks Jane :wave:

Also with dental buns before considering the PTS option could they not have the teeth removed?

Lspacehopper
05-03-2009, 10:13 PM
Also good to know thanks Jane :wave:

Also with dental buns before considering the PTS option could they not have the teeth removed?

You can't remove the molars, incisors yes.

lilbun
05-03-2009, 10:14 PM
You can't remove the molars, incisors yes.

Yes you can :)

angeleyes
05-03-2009, 10:14 PM
You can't remove the molars, incisors yes.

Ah i see - you learn something new every day!

Sooz
05-03-2009, 10:15 PM
You can't remove the molars, incisors yes.

Actually you can, but it's very difficult & risky. Definately one for the specialists unless the tooth is already loose in the socket (which they can become after numerous repeated dentals).

Lspacehopper
05-03-2009, 10:20 PM
Actually you can, but it's very difficult & risky. Definately one for the specialists unless the tooth is already loose in the socket (which they can become after numerous repeated dentals).

I meant you couldn't remove them in their entirety, as you can do with the incisors, although I guess not all the teeth would need to be removed anyway, only the problematic ones.....durr ;)

Sooz
05-03-2009, 10:20 PM
I meant you couldn't remove them in their entirety, as you can do with the incisors.

How do you mean?

Lspacehopper
05-03-2009, 10:22 PM
How do you mean?

See edited version....I was having a durrr moment and contemplating removing all the molars and it would be an unfortunate bun that needed all its molars removing ;)

Sooz
05-03-2009, 10:23 PM
See edited version....I was having a durrr moment and contemplating removing all the molars and it would be an unfortunate bun that needed all its molars removing ;)

ROFL... right I'm with you. Some vets do remove the opposing molars too though, even if they are actually OK themselves.

Lspacehopper
05-03-2009, 10:24 PM
ROFL... right I'm with you. Some vets do remove the opposing molars too though, even if they are actually OK themselves.

Gummy bunny......poor things!

lilbun
05-03-2009, 10:28 PM
I don't think it would be fair to remove them all...:shock:

Lspacehopper
05-03-2009, 10:35 PM
I don't think it would be fair to remove them all...:shock:

Heh heh...neither do I.....ignore my posts....I am getting carried away thinking about bun teeth extractions :)

honeybunny
05-03-2009, 11:00 PM
Lil Bun..which vets do you work at?

ecudc
05-03-2009, 11:13 PM
You can't remove the molars, incisors yes.

saw your drrr moment but just thought I'd add that we have had a molar extraction done once at fat fluffs on one of my foster bunnies santa as he has one molar that simply has no opposite to rub against it so grows un controlled. We have a very good vet whom we trust who recomended trying an extraction as it was just the one tooth, although warning that it may grow back as the roots are much more difficult to kill than inscisors. We decided to try it as he would otherwise be facing dentals every 3 weeks and almost certainly would never be rehomed. It all went fine, he was eating within hours and the bun nearly turned orange from carrot consumption :lol::lol: We will have to take him back in a few weeks to see how he's going & see if it has grown back but so far all is well.

Lspacehopper
05-03-2009, 11:17 PM
saw your drrr moment but just thought I'd add that we have had a molar extraction done once at fat fluffs on one of my foster bunnies santa as he has one molar that simply has no opposite to rub against it so grows un controlled. We have a very good vet whom we trust who recomended trying an extraction as it was just the one tooth, although warning that it may grow back as the roots are much more difficult to kill than inscisors. We decided to try it as he would otherwise be facing dentals every 3 weeks and almost certainly would never be rehomed. It all went fine, he was eating within hours and the bun nearly turned orange from carrot consumption :lol::lol: We will have to take him back in a few weeks to see how he's going & see if it has grown back but so far all is well.

That's good to hear :) Is there a bigger risk of abcesses etc with molar extraction?

abbymarysmokey
06-03-2009, 10:22 AM
That's good to hear :) Is there a bigger risk of abcesses etc with molar extraction?

Damaging the the jaw bone is the big risk...and potentially can mean the rabbit has to be PTS.

Molar extraction is really a 'last resort' type thing, and shouldn't be done just to avoid the cost of regular dentals.

Most molar extractions take place because of existing infection in the tooth root, which makes the tooth loose and easier to extract anyway.

Lspacehopper
06-03-2009, 10:29 AM
Damaging the the jaw bone is the big risk...and potentially can mean the rabbit has to be PTS.

Molar extraction is really a 'last resort' type thing, and shouldn't be done just to avoid the cost of regular dentals.

Most molar extractions take place because of existing infection in the tooth root, which makes the tooth loose and easier to extract anyway.

Interesting, thanks Amy :)

Jazzy B Bunny
06-03-2009, 11:13 AM
Do bunnies with no teeth need syringe feeding?

Sooz
06-03-2009, 11:38 AM
Do bunnies with no teeth need syringe feeding?

I've never come across a rabbit that had no teeth at all and most manage to eat solids with their remaining teeth. I think Tree's ippy as lost most of hers but to my knowledge she still eats a normal diet.

I'm going to have to book my Fiver in for a major dental in the next week, he had a check this morning and they were pretty bad. :(

chloaster
06-03-2009, 11:50 AM
Damaging the the jaw bone is the big risk...and potentially can mean the rabbit has to be PTS.

Molar extraction is really a 'last resort' type thing, and shouldn't be done just to avoid the cost of regular dentals.

Most molar extractions take place because of existing infection in the tooth root, which makes the tooth loose and easier to extract anyway.

Just to add that this wasn't the reason it was done, we are lucky to have Rebecca down the road who does the concious dentals and therefore it only costs us £10 each time. Santa is still only 5months old and we felt if it could be removed and he could have a normal life it would be more beneficial to him than staying in rescue as a dental bun. For us, having the tooth removed, is actually a much higher cost than the dentals. If it grows back it grows back but if it doesn't, and he no longer has to have dentals, then it will be a big plus for him. :)

bunniemum
06-03-2009, 12:47 PM
Do bunnies with no teeth need syringe feeding?

Not necessarily, you can grate/purify their food like you would for a baby, and they can still eat their food in the normal way. :)

ecudc
06-03-2009, 01:34 PM
For us, having the tooth removed, is actually a much higher cost than the dentals.

you can say that again :shock::shock: the vet bill on that day was more than my mortgage :shock::shock: It wasn't a lightly entered into decision as it is more risk than the front teeth but his is an unusual case & the extraction more straight forward than normal.
We also trust our vet 100% to recomend the right course of action for all our bunnies.

Jack's-Jane
06-03-2009, 01:43 PM
you can say that again :shock::shock: the vet bill on that day was more than my mortgage :shock::shock: It wasn't a lightly entered into decision as it is more risk than the front teeth but his is an unusual case & the extraction more straight forward than normal.
We also trust our vet 100% to recomend the right course of action for all our bunnies.

For all of us that is what is most important :)

SOAD
06-03-2009, 02:59 PM
I've never come across a rabbit that had no teeth at all and most manage to eat solids with their remaining teeth. I think Tree's ippy as lost most of hers but to my knowledge she still eats a normal diet.

I'm going to have to book my Fiver in for a major dental in the next week, he had a check this morning and they were pretty bad. :(

Yeah Zippy has no teeth, she is a gummy bear :lol:, I do soak her pellets but she can eat hard pellets too and will have a go at eating the other buns pellets. We do give her a separate meal on her own, because the other bunnies can eat faster and they prefer her food :roll: :lol: so she has a meal once a day without the others. She can eat many hard things even barley rings :shock:, I think her mouth must of harden up, but she has trouble with things like tomatoes as they will slip out of her mouth and she can't grip them (even if they're cut up very small), she manages much better chewing hard veg, she looks like a proper old lady who has taken out her false teeth :lol:

Sooz
06-03-2009, 03:01 PM
I know people who have their teeth removed eventually develop hardened gums which they can chew with, so I'm not suprised she has learnt to manage. :)

SOAD
06-03-2009, 03:11 PM
She can really crunch stuff :shock:

lilbun
06-03-2009, 03:19 PM
Lil Bun..which vets do you work at?

I work at Borrajo's Veterinary clinic, the branch in Oadby, Leicester. I don't want to sound like i'm using the Forum for a cheap plug. Would you like me to PM you? :)

honeybunny
06-03-2009, 05:31 PM
I work at Borrajo's Veterinary clinic, the branch in Oadby, Leicester. I don't want to sound like i'm using the Forum for a cheap plug. Would you like me to PM you? :)

nope just wondered although think I may have asked before!

Did you work there when Kirsty was there?

Max Grey
06-03-2009, 09:03 PM
Hi

Reading this thread as a newbie, I feel that we should treat our buns the same way we would treat our children. I WOULD NEVER take one of my children to the dentist (without informing them where they were going) and have them held down whilst a stranger drilled and filed their teeth that is how you get locked up!. With a GA the bun at least does not have the extreme stress and pain of the procedure.

Max

ecudc
06-03-2009, 09:35 PM
Hi

Reading this thread as a newbie, I feel that we should treat our buns the same way we would treat our children. I WOULD NEVER take one of my children to the dentist (without informing them where they were going) and have them held down whilst a stranger drilled and filed their teeth that is how you get locked up!. With a GA the bun at least does not have the extreme stress and pain of the procedure.

Max

Welcome as a newbie but I have to say....

The consious dental is equivalent to taking your todler to the hygenist or having a filling done with anasthetic. There is possibly a bit of stress & I dare say it does not rank to high on a bunny's favourite things to do list However, the uncious dental is equivalent to having a general anesthetic to have a filling. Most human dentists wouldn't even dream of putting someone under for dental work now unless you were having a molar removed or something similar because of the risk of GA. There are obviously big differences between how easy it is to do human dental work & to a large extent it is like comparing apples with hamburgers but a consious dental is not the equivalent of shoving a stick in someones mouth and sawing off their leg.

lilbun
06-03-2009, 09:59 PM
nope just wondered although think I may have asked before!

Did you work there when Kirsty was there?

Yes I got on well with Kirsty. How is she? Is she still at the Zoo? (Working there I mean :lol:)

honeybunny
06-03-2009, 10:21 PM
Yes I got on well with Kirsty. How is she? Is she still at the Zoo? (Working there I mean :lol:)

are you the person I homechecked:?

and nope Kirsty is not at Zoo anymore..she is working for a lady who is planning on opening a wildlife park :shock:

lilbun
08-03-2009, 07:51 PM
are you the person I homechecked:?

and nope Kirsty is not at Zoo anymore..she is working for a lady who is planning on opening a wildlife park :shock:

Hi. :wave: sorry for late reply.
Erm, I was also wondering if it was you who homechecked me. I owe you an apology for not getting back to you, but I hope you will understand that I was feeling very raw after losing two much loved buns so suddenly. It wasn’t a good time but I did take onboard your advice and made the changes you suggested. Anyway, in my job it wasn’t long before more buns came along and my lovely boy bun was so happy he flopped down beside them and bonded with them instantly- easiest bond ever but you said at the time he would bond with anybun. I hope the two lovely girls you showed me found loving homes.
Nothing Kirsty does would surprise me...:lol:

abbymarysmokey
08-03-2009, 08:28 PM
Reading this thread as a newbie, I feel that we should treat our buns the same way we would treat our children. I WOULD NEVER take one of my children to the dentist (without informing them where they were going) and have them held down whilst a stranger drilled and filed their teeth that is how you get locked up!. With a GA the bun at least does not have the extreme stress and pain of the procedure.



I would hope your dentist doesn't give a GA to children for minor dental work...in fact I think it was banned for routine procedures after a number of children died at the dentists.

honeybunny
09-03-2009, 12:47 AM
If I remember to take my camera with me..next time we have our bunnies teeth done I'll video them before and immediately after and you can all judge for yourselves how stressed they are

purplebumble
09-03-2009, 01:04 AM
Bif usually is great after a conscious dental...mark takes her off puts her on her back with a gag and is bak in a few mins..she takes a few moths to regrow her spurs...

this time ellen did them and she sat her up on the table and filed them with the gag in place......and bif wasnt bery comfy after..the gag had made her mouth sore which is unsual but she did figet at one point which is unusual for her.

However after two weeks ellen said she wanted to see ehr to make sure the teeth were even and file off nay more that had sprung up to make them level.
She actually was supposed to see her thursday but the dental kit had got left at the hospital the day before and no one told her. so i had rescheduled for mon morning for ehr mums bunny and bertie....then friday bif and mums bun end up hospitalised! and guess what..bifs spurs have grown back already!! the next thing is to decide as her spurs are always so tiny but enuff to affect her..whether or not a dental under a GA is going to be the next step or carry on like we are..as the risk of GA for a dental bun is so severe..its why i had to have my beloved old bully Kibbles put down she had a dental every month...and i had her for 18 months. i wished now a dentist had said they could do dentals like they do with bif...shed have probably been alive now trying to be an oap bun with a lackof humour:lol::lol:

At least we know Bifs dental probs are due to her lower jaw receding way too far back..not an overbite for a change but a receding lower jaw!! hence her molars arent able to grind away and she always eats so daintily and takes longer..now we know its not cos shes a lady:lol:

mm i wonder if i ask ellen if i can do that..but im usually holding bif..it may be one for the hospital to do...thatd be interesting.