Advice on spay/anaesthetics appreciated

Esme went for her spay on Tuesday but unfortuantely it didn't happen because she stopped breathing when she was put under the anaesthetic so it had to be reversed as an emergency and the operation couldn't be done.

She's absolutely fine now. When I collected her the veterinary nurse said the vet had said it would be possible to try again using a different type of anaesthetic. I haven't discussed the risks (I will before rebooking her) but just wondered if anyone had any knowledge of the risks she would be at, compared with a rabbit that hasn't had this reaction?

She's six months old, appears to be very healthy, had given me no concerns whatsoever otherwise.

Not sure what anaesthetic was used but this list of drugs I paid for are:

Torbugesic
Kataset 10ml
Domitor injection
Antisdan

Though I am very much pro-spay, if she is at risk from the anaesthetic I'm considering not having her neutered, she is adorable and doesn't need it from a behaviour point of view, although she is yet to be bonded and she may be too much for Artie unless done ... lots of decision .....

Any advice would be appreciated

:wave: i think they didnt use the right bun anaesthetic..
its called isoflurane ,thats the safe bun anaesthetic.
i would use a different vet..we lost a bun to an incompetent vet.
pets at home are actually very good with bun spays believe it or not:lol:
phone around and ask what gas they use for buns and also a trick question of "shall i starve my bun first?" make sure they use the right gas and say no to starving.
also that they keep bun separate from other animals ie dogs

rabbitmum said:

:wave: i think they didnt use the right bun anaesthetic..
its called isoflurane ,thats the safe bun anaesthetic.
i would use a different vet..we lost a bun to an incompetent vet.
pets at home are actually very good with bun spays believe it or not:lol:
phone around and ask what gas they use for buns and also a trick question of "shall i starve my bun first?" make sure they use the right gas and say no to starving.
also that they keep bun separate from other animals ie dogs

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I'm actually happy with the vet, I don't know why insoflurane isn't listed (I wondered if it also went by another name) as he actually told me a month ago that they "use all the lastest recommended methods including using insoflurane". I've had two buns neutered by them and 10 dentals so don't feel they are incompetent, though thanks for the advice. (They didn't charge me for anything other than the drugs £8.94, which I thought was really good of them too, because they must have had a lot of work looking after her.)

Oh dear, thats really worrying. Have a good chat with the vet about it to put your mind at rest first and ask them what they reccommend. The fact they reversed it so fast shows they were taking good care of your bunny and that would put me at ease a bit.

Lucy said:

Oh dear, thats really worrying. Have a good chat with the vet about it to put your mind at rest first and ask them what they reccommend. The fact they reversed it so fast shows they were taking good care of your bunny and that would put me at ease a bit.

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Thanks, I do trust the vet in question and SOAD and Jack's-Jane said they had had bunnies do the same thing, so I think it was just Esme's reaction... I need to be absolutely sure before I put her through it again though!

*Bump*

I will of course be quizzing the vet on this one but if anyone has any knowledge/experience of the above subject I'd be grateful for any more info anyone has.

Hi there,
I've been a veterinary nurse, in practice for 7 years
The last practice i worked at always induced anaesthesia with a combination of domitor/torbugesic/ketamine intravenously, then once the rabbit was asleep we'd put them onto isoflurane as a maintenance anaesthetic. After the procedure, we'd then inject them with antisedan intramuscularly at half the dose of domitor (as this is the reversal agent), then the bunny wakes up.
Where I am now, we use domitor/ketamine as the induction agent given intramuscularly, then put the bunny onto isoflurane when asleep, and reverse with antisedan intravenously after the procedure.
We find that by using injectable anaesthetics to induce bunnies is a lot less stressful for them (therefore they have a smoother anaesthetic), and is also safer to staff members than gassing down with isoflurane.

Tinky said:

Hi there,
I've been a veterinary nurse, in practice for 7 years
The last practice i worked at always induced anaesthesia with a combination of domitor/torbugesic/ketamine intravenously, then once the rabbit was asleep we'd put them onto isoflurane as a maintenance anaesthetic. After the procedure, we'd then inject them with antisedan intramuscularly at half the dose of domitor (as this is the reversal agent), then the bunny wakes up.
Where I am now, we use domitor/ketamine as the induction agent given intramuscularly, then put the bunny onto isoflurane when asleep, and reverse with antisedan intravenously after the procedure.
We find that by using injectable anaesthetics to induce bunnies is a lot less stressful for them (therefore they have a smoother anaesthetic), and is also safer to staff members than gassing down with isoflurane.

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My Vet would agree with this

Janex

Thanks both for the advice. I can only partially get my head round it, but (I think) this means that the method used wasn't the most up to date.

Do you know if she was given the best method, is there still a fairly high risk of a bad reaction? Or should how it's done make all the difference?

As far as I'm aware, the method she received is the most commonly used, up-to-date, and therefore the "safest" method of anaesthesia in rabbits. I think perhaps she was just unfortunate to be one of the very few bunnies who didn't react well to this particular method of inducing anaesthesia.
Perhaps next time the vet could just "gas her down" with isoflurane, in case it was any of the three drugs used in the triple combination anaesthetic she received that caused her to react in the way she did.
Your vet will be the best person to advise on this, as each practice has their own protocol

Tinky said:

As far as I'm aware, the method she received is the most commonly used, up-to-date, and therefore the "safest" method of anaesthesia in rabbits. I think perhaps she was just unfortunate to be one of the very few bunnies who didn't react well to this particular method of inducing anaesthesia.
Perhaps next time the vet could just "gas her down" with isoflurane, in case it was any of the three drugs used in the triple combination anaesthetic she received that caused her to react in the way she did.
Your vet will be the best person to advise on this, as each practice has their own protocol

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Thanks ever so much. He did say there were other methods to try to I will ask what they are and the risks involved. I really don't want to loose faith in that particular vet as the practice is only 10 minutes away and they are really good people to deal with.

It doesn't sound to me as if your vet did anything wrong at all; it just looks like they used the injectable agents to induce anaesthesia, and isofluorane isn't listed on your receipt because they actually got far enough into the procedure to need it! I'd be quite happy with what your vet has done as an up to date method, and even happier that they recognised a problem and reversed it swiftly!

AlisonA said:

It doesn't sound to me as if your vet did anything wrong at all; it just looks like they used the injectable agents to induce anaesthesia, and isofluorane isn't listed on your receipt because they actually got far enough into the procedure to need it! I'd be quite happy with what your vet has done as an up to date method, and even happier that they recognised a problem and reversed it swiftly!

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Thanks that's very reassuring. I felt sure before the op I was putting her in the safest hands I could and still felt that I had done so when I collected her. (So very glad I that she survived it)....

It's still good to get reassurance from others on the subject. (I hadn't thought about insofluorane not being listed because they didn't get that far).

we use domitor and ketamine, with an opioid (buprenorphine/torb depending on level of analgesia and additional sedation needed), then maintain with isoflurane. We never induce with isoflurane as it really stings the eyes and nose, so use it to maintain anaesthetic only after injectable induction. Mask inductions using isoflurane are very stressful too so bunnies release catecholamines (stress-linked hormones) which can lead to irregular heart rhythms so standard procedure is now to get them asleep with injectable anaesthetics and keep them asleep with iso. Most practices won't list Isoflurane on an invoice as it is difficult to quantify how much is used as it is volatile, not a set liquid amount, it is usually charged as 'X minutes anaesthetic' or within the cost of neutering.
As an aside we would never consider using Atipamazole (Antisedan) intravenously, didn't realise people still did this :shock:

marie_kubiak said:

As an aside we would never consider using Atipamazole (Antisedan) intravenously, didn't realise people still did this :shock:

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Crikes I misread the previous post :shock:
My Vet uses IM Antisedan, not IV

Janex

marie_kubiak said:

we use domitor and ketamine, with an opioid (buprenorphine/torb depending on level of analgesia and additional sedation needed), then maintain with isoflurane. We never induce with isoflurane as it really stings the eyes and nose, so use it to maintain anaesthetic only after injectable induction. Mask inductions using isoflurane are very stressful too so bunnies release catecholamines (stress-linked hormones) which can lead to irregular heart rhythms so standard procedure is now to get them asleep with injectable anaesthetics and keep them asleep with iso. Most practices won't list Isoflurane on an invoice as it is difficult to quantify how much is used as it is volatile, not a set liquid amount, it is usually charged as 'X minutes anaesthetic' or within the cost of neutering.
As an aside we would never consider using Atipamazole (Antisedan) intravenously, didn't realise people still did this :shock:

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Thanks. Having read this, I don't I want to put her through the stress of insoflurane only. If it was essential surgery then I'd have to take whatever is available but I don't want to put her at risk for a spay at this stage. It was only really about the cancer risk, as her temperament is excellent. I will see what my vet was going to offer as an alternative.