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Norocarp in rabbits...
- Thread starter charlie82
- Start date
Jack's-Jane
Wise Old Thumper
Norocarp is another Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory, its generic name is Carprofen I think.
My Vet prefers using Metacam ( Meloxicam ) rather than Carprofen as she believes Metacam to be less toxic to the Liver.
Not sure I understand the second part of your question about Metacam :?
Do you mean if oral Metacam is given to an anorexic Bun is it still effective ?
Personally I would prefer an anorexic Bun to have injectaable Metacam as their GI tract may not be working efficiently so they may not absorb oral meds and also if their guts are quite empty oral NSAIDs can cause GI ulceration .
AFAIK Metacam and Norocarp should not be administered together.
Janex
My Vet prefers using Metacam ( Meloxicam ) rather than Carprofen as she believes Metacam to be less toxic to the Liver.
Not sure I understand the second part of your question about Metacam :?
Do you mean if oral Metacam is given to an anorexic Bun is it still effective ?
Personally I would prefer an anorexic Bun to have injectaable Metacam as their GI tract may not be working efficiently so they may not absorb oral meds and also if their guts are quite empty oral NSAIDs can cause GI ulceration .
AFAIK Metacam and Norocarp should not be administered together.
Janex
Thanks Jane, I was hoping you would be around.
Yes I meant that if a bun was anorexic would the oral metacam still be effective as I am aware that they don't absorb meds as they should when their guts are empty. I was also wondering if even if only on pain meds for a short while would it still be advisable to ask for zantac? At the moment my bunny is just eating greens and nothing else.
I want to put my bunny on to metacam via sub-cut as he is virtually impossible to medicate, and he is eating very little so I have questioned the vet as to whether or not it is even worth keeping him on meds orally. He has abx via sub-cut so I think it would be easier to administer pain meds this way.....
They don't stock injectable metacam though....
ETA I was concerned about norocarp because of the possible effects it could have on his liver, but i'm not sure what other options I have other than metacam orally.
Yes I meant that if a bun was anorexic would the oral metacam still be effective as I am aware that they don't absorb meds as they should when their guts are empty. I was also wondering if even if only on pain meds for a short while would it still be advisable to ask for zantac? At the moment my bunny is just eating greens and nothing else.
I want to put my bunny on to metacam via sub-cut as he is virtually impossible to medicate, and he is eating very little so I have questioned the vet as to whether or not it is even worth keeping him on meds orally. He has abx via sub-cut so I think it would be easier to administer pain meds this way.....
They don't stock injectable metacam though....
ETA I was concerned about norocarp because of the possible effects it could have on his liver, but i'm not sure what other options I have other than metacam orally.
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I've read a couple of articles in the last few weeks which say that Pfiezer (they were veterinary papers) recommends a minimum 5 days gap between the use of different NSAIDs with the exception of Aspirin which is 10-14 days. Does this apply to all methods of administration? :?
I would also be interested to know the answer to that.
I don't like the idea of using norocarp on a regular basis and would only be comfortable if it were administered as a one off....obviously no use if a bun requires regular pain relief. I am utterly at a loss at the moment.... I think I may be facing 'the decision' where my bun is concerned.
Jack's-Jane
Wise Old Thumper
AFAIK it applies to all methods of administration
Charlie82 do you know the cause of your Bun's anorexia?
You could ask your Vet to order some Injectable Metacam in for you. It comes in 5ml and 10ml bottles........and costs an arm and a leg I am affraid....:roll:
I would certainly ask the Vet about giving your Bun Ranitidine. I always use it now (with Vets agreement) for anyBun on oral Metacam or in cases of GI Stasis.
Janex
Jane,
Yes, my rabbit has dental issues that have now become something my vet doesn't really know what to do about and is referring him to Frances H B.
He came to me with dental issues (I suspect his previous owners knew this hence giving him up) and has required frequent dentals. He lost a couple of molars from his lower right arcade a while ago but we knew it was only a matter of time before he lost others as they were loose. Problem being his left hand side (both upper and lower molars) are perfect! His right hand side is a mess. He now has only one lower molar and I think all upper molars. Up until 3-4 weeks ago it was never apparent that he was a dental bun i.e had never shown clinical signs and was a big bunny .. between 3.5 - 3.8 Kg. These past few weeks he has declined and will now only eat greens and very very little hay. His weight has gone down to 2.7kg at this point and seems to be going down over a matter of days. He becomes very aggressive and highly stressed if I try to force feed or even go near his mouth...obviously this isn't helping. I've had to medicate 'difficult' buns before but nothing like him. I am just at a loss now as to what to do.
Yes, my rabbit has dental issues that have now become something my vet doesn't really know what to do about and is referring him to Frances H B.
He came to me with dental issues (I suspect his previous owners knew this hence giving him up) and has required frequent dentals. He lost a couple of molars from his lower right arcade a while ago but we knew it was only a matter of time before he lost others as they were loose. Problem being his left hand side (both upper and lower molars) are perfect! His right hand side is a mess. He now has only one lower molar and I think all upper molars. Up until 3-4 weeks ago it was never apparent that he was a dental bun i.e had never shown clinical signs and was a big bunny .. between 3.5 - 3.8 Kg. These past few weeks he has declined and will now only eat greens and very very little hay. His weight has gone down to 2.7kg at this point and seems to be going down over a matter of days. He becomes very aggressive and highly stressed if I try to force feed or even go near his mouth...obviously this isn't helping. I've had to medicate 'difficult' buns before but nothing like him. I am just at a loss now as to what to do.
marie_kubiak
Alpha Buck
Norocarp is carprofen (same as rimadyl) and is a very similar category of drug as metacam. Metacam tends to be the preferred choice for bunnies as it is available in an oral, reasonably palatable form, whereas norocarp is only available as injectable and most owners do prefer oral meds. There is no evidence in rabbits suggesting any difference in side effects as far as I know but would be very interested if anyone has any links. When I used to do cat/dog work I did notice that some arthritic dogs would not improve on a particular NSAID but change the NSAID to another in the same group, but different active ingredient it can have dramatic improvement. There may be similar variation in individual rabbits, but again no data I wouldn't change the drug used without a 7-10day break due to the potential for more severe side effects if two different NSAIDs are present in the system at one time. This does apply whether it is given orally or injected.
I prefer to use any NSAID with ranitidine (Zantac) especially if used for more than 4-5 days or there are any GI problems to start with as ranitidine has a protective effect on the stomach lining. Any non-steroidal will decrease the bicarbonate and mucus protection, particularly if there is reduced motility/intake and can increase the chances of gastric ulceration. Ranitidine also enhances gut motility so is very useful in any sick bun. It can be given orally or injected. He could be switched to all injectable meds but there still remains the problem of supportive feeding if he isn't eating well, sadly there is no way to bypass syringe feeding as yet! Is there anyone who can help you? I find with awkward rabbits the least stressful way for all involved is to have a designated holder who wraps them up in a towel to prevent wriggling and firmly holds the back legs and body while the other person holds the head and gives the medication.
metacam injection is a very commonly used formulation and I'm surprised they don't use it at all. If you would like to try injectable metacam if concerned that the oral form is either not being given successfully or worried about motility/absorption then you could ask for a prescription to get the injectable form from a registered pharmacist or another vet practice.
It would be worth having his teeth rechecked, preferably with Xrays done as they seem to be causing him discomfort. Even if he needs regular dental work under anaesthetic to keep it in check this may be preferable to trying to control the secondary signs on a daily basis when he gets so stressed out.
I wouldn't change the drug used without a 7-10day break due to the potential for more severe side effects if two different NSAIDs are present in the system at one time. This does apply whether it is given orally or injected.I prefer to use any NSAID with ranitidine (Zantac) especially if used for more than 4-5 days or there are any GI problems to start with as ranitidine has a protective effect on the stomach lining. Any non-steroidal will decrease the bicarbonate and mucus protection, particularly if there is reduced motility/intake and can increase the chances of gastric ulceration. Ranitidine also enhances gut motility so is very useful in any sick bun. It can be given orally or injected. He could be switched to all injectable meds but there still remains the problem of supportive feeding if he isn't eating well, sadly there is no way to bypass syringe feeding as yet! Is there anyone who can help you? I find with awkward rabbits the least stressful way for all involved is to have a designated holder who wraps them up in a towel to prevent wriggling and firmly holds the back legs and body while the other person holds the head and gives the medication.
metacam injection is a very commonly used formulation and I'm surprised they don't use it at all. If you would like to try injectable metacam if concerned that the oral form is either not being given successfully or worried about motility/absorption then you could ask for a prescription to get the injectable form from a registered pharmacist or another vet practice.
It would be worth having his teeth rechecked, preferably with Xrays done as they seem to be causing him discomfort. Even if he needs regular dental work under anaesthetic to keep it in check this may be preferable to trying to control the secondary signs on a daily basis when he gets so stressed out.
Thank you so much for that.
He has evidently been in slight discomfort for a few weeks now, but I think my vet underestimated the extent of the problem initially. He finally went under GA yesterday and it was then the extent of the problem was discovered.
In himself he doesn't seem any different, still begging for his treat every morning and evening...but it's the lack of eating that concerns me because I can't see how he is going to survive for much longer if he continues to solely eat greens only.
Also, like you say even if I manage to give him all of his meds via sub-cut I am still going to have to assist feed seeing as how he won't even eat critical care voluntarily. I don't really have anyone to help me so I am definitely worrying long term. I've had many foster bunnies come through here that may have been on meds for one reason or another, and amongst those have been bunnies who have been difficult to treat but I have managed one way or another. Thumper is just in a league of his own. I've tried every trick in the book with him and he is just too smart. At the moment he is really angry with me, and every time he sees me he runs and hides, thumping his feet along the way!
I will speak with the vet in the morning and ask about ordering in some metacam to inject. I have used it in the past from a different vet and I'm sure they will get my some if I specifically ask. They are really good in that sense.
He has evidently been in slight discomfort for a few weeks now, but I think my vet underestimated the extent of the problem initially. He finally went under GA yesterday and it was then the extent of the problem was discovered.
In himself he doesn't seem any different, still begging for his treat every morning and evening...but it's the lack of eating that concerns me because I can't see how he is going to survive for much longer if he continues to solely eat greens only.
Also, like you say even if I manage to give him all of his meds via sub-cut I am still going to have to assist feed seeing as how he won't even eat critical care voluntarily. I don't really have anyone to help me so I am definitely worrying long term. I've had many foster bunnies come through here that may have been on meds for one reason or another, and amongst those have been bunnies who have been difficult to treat but I have managed one way or another. Thumper is just in a league of his own. I've tried every trick in the book with him and he is just too smart. At the moment he is really angry with me, and every time he sees me he runs and hides, thumping his feet along the way!
I will speak with the vet in the morning and ask about ordering in some metacam to inject. I have used it in the past from a different vet and I'm sure they will get my some if I specifically ask. They are really good in that sense.
Norocarp is carprofen (same as rimadyl) and is a very similar category of drug as metacam. Metacam tends to be the preferred choice for bunnies as it is available in an oral, reasonably palatable form, whereas norocarp is only available as injectable and most owners do prefer oral meds. There is no evidence in rabbits suggesting any difference in side effects as far as I know but would be very interested if anyone has any links. When I used to do cat/dog work I did notice that some arthritic dogs would not improve on a particular NSAID but change the NSAID to another in the same group, but different active ingredient it can have dramatic improvement. There may be similar variation in individual rabbits, but again no data
I prefer to use any NSAID with ranitidine (Zantac) especially if used for more than 4-5 days or there are any GI problems to start with as ranitidine has a protective effect on the stomach lining. Any non-steroidal will decrease the bicarbonate and mucus protection, particularly if there is reduced motility/intake and can increase the chances of gastric ulceration. Ranitidine also enhances gut motility so is very useful in any sick bun. It can be given orally or injected. He could be switched to all injectable meds but there still remains the problem of supportive feeding if he isn't eating well, sadly there is no way to bypass syringe feeding as yet! Is there anyone who can help you? I find with awkward rabbits the least stressful way for all involved is to have a designated holder who wraps them up in a towel to prevent wriggling and firmly holds the back legs and body while the other person holds the head and gives the medication.
metacam injection is a very commonly used formulation and I'm surprised they don't use it at all. If you would like to try injectable metacam if concerned that the oral form is either not being given successfully or worried about motility/absorption then you could ask for a prescription to get the injectable form from a registered pharmacist or another vet practice.
It would be worth having his teeth rechecked, preferably with Xrays done as they seem to be causing him discomfort. Even if he needs regular dental work under anaesthetic to keep it in check this may be preferable to trying to control the secondary signs on a daily basis when he gets so stressed out.
Jack's-Jane
Wise Old Thumper
My Vet says she used to use Carprofen but at a Bunny Health Conference it was stated that Carprofen is metabolised in a different way by the liver and can potentially have damaging effects. I dont know the technical terms.....sorry !!
I'll ask my Vet if she has any paperwork/reference data from the lecture and if she does I'll PM you the info
Janex
