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Dubious Vet advice? No more pellets!?

D

davemulheran

Warren Scout
TO summarise, Ralph was off colour and I took him to a 24 hour emergency vets a few weekends ago. Turns out he had a UTI.

He had some baytrill and I took a sample of his wee in to the vets yesterday so they could analyse it.

Good news is there was no sign of blood in it but it had a lot of sediment (yellowish and thick) this seperated and sunk to the bottom of the sample and his orangy red wee was at the top.

The vets reckon to stop feeding him pellets and to just feed him hay and greens (she said lettuce!) i mentioned lettuce was full of water and not recommended but she disagreed!

would pellets be the cause of this extra sediment in his wee!?

I would have thought it would have been the greens (kale and spring greens) that caused the sediment.. too much calcium etc...

has anyone got an opinion on this?

thks

Dave
 
What pellets do you feed? Most are alfalfa/lucerne-based, which is high in calcium.
 
She's talking out of her butt. I'd find a new vet if I were you. The excess calcium is from the dark greens and leaves, not the pellets.
THe woman is an idiot. :roll:
Ignore her advice :lol:
 
I feed ralph a mix of science selectives (70%) and pets at home rabbit pellets (30%)

i used to give him quite a lot of curly kale as he loved it, but have cut that right down now and just give him the odd sprigg of flat leaf parsley each day


plus loads of meadow / timothy hay and freeze dried grass
 
I'm not going to join the vet-bashing, as plenty of people don't feed pellets, or feed them as a treat. You might want to look at changing to a timothy pellet though, ie Oxbow Bunny Basics T.
 
My vet is all for the hay and veg diet, although she's never recommended lettuce :? You will find that some people don't rate pellets at all, but in my view I think they are essential to ensure they are getting enough nutrients.

With regards the pellets causing the problem, I agree with Sonia, she's talking out of her rear end! :lol:
 
:wave: i'd swap the parsley for another herb like coriander, parsley is a high calcium herb and i think i'm right in thinking excess calcium causes sludge in pee. i know you don't give him much but i'd take all precautions to lower blood calcium if this is the main problem.

as for the vet saying to feed vets, i would be doing a face like this - :? then running from the door! :lol:

here's a good little article on calci-yummy - calcium and rabbits
 
Hi Dave

davemulheran said:
TO summarise, Ralph was off colour and I took him to a 24 hour emergency vets a few weekends ago. Turns out he had a UTI.

He had some baytrill and I took a sample of his wee in to the vets yesterday so they could analyse it.

Good news is there was no sign of blood in it but it had a lot of sediment (yellowish and thick) this seperated and sunk to the bottom of the sample and his orangy red wee was at the top.

The vets reckon to stop feeding him pellets and to just feed him hay and greens (she said lettuce!) i mentioned lettuce was full of water and not recommended but she disagreed!

would pellets be the cause of this extra sediment in his wee!?

I would have thought it would have been the greens (kale and spring greens) that caused the sediment.. too much calcium etc...

has anyone got an opinion on this?

thks

Dave
Click to expand...

At this juncture can I respectfully direct you to my thread on vets , have your say ....your oppinion would be welcome if you have not already posted.

many thanks

alan.
 
thanks for all the advice guys, much appreciated. And thanks LauraLou for the link. Most helpfull.

I have a bag of bunny basics, i will try to wien him over to those. He's not keen. I think because they are a lot thinner and less 'meaty' than his curent SS pellets.

Good thing was he had no blood in his wee. I will just try to lower his calcium intake.

any reccomendations on low calcium veg? So far .. corriander...


thanks again

Dave
 
It may be the fact that lettuce is full of water that is the advantage in this case.
Sludgy urine is a multi-factorial problem, related to diet, reduced urine output, reduced activity and any underlying health problems among other issues. Many urinary infections are a secondary consequence of the sludge acting as a medium for bacteria or irritating the bladder lining causing a breakdown in the protective layer.
Pellets have a very low fluid content and so reduce urine volume allowing any sediment in the bladder to remain there for longer and act as a nidus for further crystal formation.
Veg has a much higher fluid content and so helps 'flush' the bladder more regularly. Also weight for weight even with the most mineral rich veg, the percentage weight that is minerals that can condense out as stones is still higher in pellets. Studies have been shown that even with high calcium content veggies there is still a reduction in the amount of sludge. Many rabbits with chronic sludge problems show a massive improvement with a change of diet to greens. The increased activity involved with foraging also helps with improving muscle tone and 'stirring up' sludge to stop it condensing to a harder to shift form.
 
Sounds like another good old cat and dog vet.

I'd run for the hills if my vet recommended lettuce.
 
house rabbits don't need any pellets really, and even my outside bunnies only have a couple of teaspoons of them daily. Pellets are very high in calcium if the rabbit has a big dish full all day to munch on, and doesn't tend to eat hay, so maybe your vet was assuming this scenario?

Best idea is to encourage him to drink more by putting water in a dish, warming it with a splash of boiling from the kettle, and shutting him in with his dish directly after feeding - they do forget to drink if they're free to roam all the time or there's too many distractions.

It's not likely to be the veg causing it, more likely not enough drink/too many pellets - they should only have a medium leaf of greens a day anyway, and of course greens are wet - it's not dry weight calcium as the veg isn't dried.
 
I wouldn't say it was outrageously bad advice though - some types of lettuce are ok (but I would expect them to specify which ones are ok and to stress never to feed iceberg), and pellets are concentrated so they do contain more concentrated levels of calcium than would be found in a wild rabbit's diet. A wild rabbits diet does consist mainly of hay/grass and a few other nibbly bits so in essence she is just promoting a healthy natural bunny diet. Easier said than done for our domesticated furries though!

Carrot tops are really high in calcium so don't feed those - I would just stick to some different hays for variety (not alfalfa), and maybe some of the 'ok' types of lettuce as perhaps they are lower calcium than the darker leafier veg like kale, spinach and greens.
 
AlisonA - Carrot tops are really high in calcium
Click to expand...

Laralou - i'd swap the parsley for another herb like coriander, parsley is a high calcium herb
Click to expand...

I though carrot tops and parsley were ok - isnt parsley supposed to be a natural tonic??

I thought it was things like kale and brocolli you had to watch - mine love parsley and carrot tops - oh, I'm confused!!! I printed a list off that Sooz did on a thread and i'm sure it says these are ok :?
 
At the RWA conference in November one of the RWA vets did a session on calcium problems and she specifically said to only feed carrot tops as a treat as they are one of the highest in calcium.
 
marie_kubiak said:
It may be the fact that lettuce is full of water that is the advantage in this case.
Sludgy urine is a multi-factorial problem, related to diet, reduced urine output, reduced activity and any underlying health problems among other issues. Many urinary infections are a secondary consequence of the sludge acting as a medium for bacteria or irritating the bladder lining causing a breakdown in the protective layer.
Pellets have a very low fluid content and so reduce urine volume allowing any sediment in the bladder to remain there for longer and act as a nidus for further crystal formation.
Veg has a much higher fluid content and so helps 'flush' the bladder more regularly. Also weight for weight even with the most mineral rich veg, the percentage weight that is minerals that can condense out as stones is still higher in pellets. Studies have been shown that even with high calcium content veggies there is still a reduction in the amount of sludge. Many rabbits with chronic sludge problems show a massive improvement with a change of diet to greens. The increased activity involved with foraging also helps with improving muscle tone and 'stirring up' sludge to stop it condensing to a harder to shift form.
Click to expand...


Some great info there Marie, thanks. I shall definatley be cutting down the pellets, possibly trying to transfer to bunny basics (damn, just bought a fresh bag of SS) and increase the hay and veg situation.
 
cheryl21 said:
I though carrot tops and parsley were ok - isnt parsley supposed to be a natural tonic??

I thought it was things like kale and brocolli you had to watch - mine love parsley and carrot tops - oh, I'm confused!!! I printed a list off that Sooz did on a thread and i'm sure it says these are ok :?
Click to expand...

yeah it would be hard to find anything higher in calcium than parsley - it's fine for a treat occasionally though :) kale is high in calcium, but greens seem to be a confusing area - in the USA greens are like carrot tops - the tops of root veggies and so high in calcium, in the UK though 'greens' are usually forced baby cabbage, and cabbage is low in calcium - bit confusing but they don't need more than a medium leaf a day anyway, so compared to the same amount of parsley and carrot tops, that's not a lot of calcium - greens are good for their teeth and guts too, but only introduce new veg a tiny bit at a time over 2 weeks, to make sure it doesn't upset their tummy
 
as most pellets are alfafa based they are high in calcium so vet not talking out of her behind. You can get oxbow t pellets which are timothy hay based and so are higher in fibre, and lower in protein and calcium.

veg to feed:


cauliflower

raddish
corgette
water cress
dark lettuce
corriander
brocolli florets
savoy cabbage
endive
pepper


Veg to steer clear of:

Carrot tops
parsley
dandelions
Kale
turnip greens if you grow your own
mustard greens (think mustard and cress)
chicory
Pak choi
Chinese cabbage

Occasional veg

spinach (oxilates)
Carrot (sugar)
squash (sugar)
turnips (sugar)
fruits (sugar)
sugar snap peas/mange tout (sugar)
brocolli stems (calcium)
swiss chard (oxilates)
Cabbage (other than savoy)


http://carrotcafe.com/f/calevel.html
 
what was the vet on? lettuce produces gas and can causes bloating in buns!!!! hence why they dont have it! if no pellets then were else will they get nutirents they need! my vets reccomend the supa excel pellets.
 
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