• Forum/Server Upgrade If you are reading this you have made it to the upgraded forum. Posts made on the old forum after 26th October 2023 have not been transfered. Everything else should be here. If you find any issues please let us know.
  • Please Note - Medical Advice

    Please keep in mind that posts on this forum are from members of the public sharing personal opinions. It is not a replacement for qualified medical advice from a veterinarian. Many illnesses share similar symptoms but require different treatments. A medical exam is necessary for an accurate diagnosis, without which appropriate treatment cannot be given.

    You should always consult your vet before following any suggestions for medication or treatment you have read about. The wrong treatment could make your rabbit worse or mean your vet is unable to give the correct treatment because of drug interactions. Even non prescription drugs can do harm if given inappropriately.

    We are very grateful to members who take time to answer other members questions, but please do be clear in your replies that you are sharing personal experience and not giving instructions on what must be done.

    Urgent Medical Advice: If you need, or think you might need, urgent medical advice you should contact a vet. If it is out of working hours phone your vet's normal number and there should be an answer phone message with instructions on what to do.

Confusing C&S Results...Any Idea's?- Jane in here please!

Sooz

Wise Old Thumper
Lexie's Culture & Sensitivity results from her nasal swab came back today and I am a little concerned.

The Culture part was as we suspected, it showed a Pasteurella infection.

However the Sensitivity analysis showed it was receptive to all antibiotics except for one, including Baytril & Septrin of which she has had a 5 weeks course and 4 week course respectively.

She showed little improvement to either abx but has become progressively worse these last few days after all antibiotics were withdrawn.

Im now at a loss as to what to do. Anneke is away on a course for 5 days and has a locum at the surgery. She wants to see Lexie for another thorough top to tail check when she gets back to see if there are any other underlying problems. In the meantime Lexie is to go on another course of Enrofloxacin and double dose.

Anneke is happy for Anita to see Lexie if necessary while she is away but has assured me she is only a phone call away if Lexie needs her.

Does anyone have any suggestions or even reassurance? Lexie is in need of a dental and I will request skull x-rays too but she currently is in no position to have a GA.
 
Last edited:
When we went to the Horsham RWF conference they were sugesting nebulising a form of 'discinfectant' into the air for rabbits with upper respiratory tract infection. Christabel and ARC spoke with the vet after the conference to find out further details about this. I know Christabel was considering 2 of Janes rabbits for this very recently.

I can give you more information about this if you would like. You would need to purchase a nebuliser unit for this if you were to go down this route and convert something to use as a nebuliser chamber for a rabbit to be in whilst recieving this therapy.
 
I use an inhaler on Smokey, you actually get inhalers for cats, with a chamber and 2 mask sizes, the small one fits Smokey to a T. It cost me about £70 in all, but its worth it, and can always be used again, for other rescues with problems. It has a one way valve and we can see that Smokey's breaths are stronger with it.:)
 
Has the test checked for fungal infection. My friend had a degu with recurrent respiratory problems and her vets thought it may be "aspergillus" (farmers lung), contracted from the hay/straw.
 
It was a full test, they checked for everything.

I want something that is actually going to kill the bacteria as opposed to just help with her breathing.

Janice I would appreciate any notes you may have on the nebuliser and disinfectant technique. :)
 
Sorry. i just wondered if there was a secondary problem going on, if she wasn't improving with antibiotics which should have helped.

Would a penicillin based antibiotic help, especially if they help with pasturella abcsesses, I presume the abcsesses are filled with pasturella bacteria, or am I being stupid.
 
I have considered Bicillin injections but as a last resort, I need to be very careful with her stomach as her feeding habits are not great due to her molars.

Thanks for the PM Janice :wave:
 
Can you email Dana Kremple, maybe directly instead of the question & answer site? This is her area of expertise apparently, being a scientist I guess.
 
I have considered Bicillin injections but as a last resort, I need to be very careful with her stomach as her feeding habits are not great due to her molars.

Thanks for the PM Janice :wave:

Bicillin is not 'legal' in the UK.


Bicillin: the UK position

Basic facts about bicillin

Many rabbit owners seeking background information about the treatment of serious bony infections in rabbits have read about bicillin treatment, mainly on websites based in the USA. This is one topic where the situation between the US and the UK differs!

Your vet's prescribing and the law

Veterinary surgeons in the UK cannot give any drug they fancy to an animal - they're obliged by law to follow the "cascade" system.

The first choice would be to use a drug licensed to treat that problem in that species. The second choice would be to use either a drug licensed to treat the same problem in another species or, a different problem in the same species. Only if these options are not available is a British vet free to choose any drug available in the UK (either for animals or humans) for use in any species. If the desired drug isn't available in the UK, then the vet must obtain permission from the Veterinary Medicines Directorate to import and use the substance.

Bicillin falls into this category - it isn't licensed in the UK at all. It can only be imported and used legally in the UK if the vet treating a particular rabbit has obtained a Special Treatment Authorisation (STA) from the Veterinary Medicines Directorate (VMD). Obtaining an STA is usually relatively straightforward - so long as the treating vet can convince the VMD that there is no safe alternative available in the UK, and that the proposed treatment is both safe and effective. And this is where the bicillin story starts to unravel.

There's no firm scientific evidence that bicillin is an effective treatment for rabbits with abscesses and osteomyelitis. Although rabbit owners and vets have reported successes in individual rabbits - including some "near miracles" - no formal studies or trials have been conducted. And these anecdotal reports are not enough to convince the VMD.

At the end of 2002, the RWA/RWF wrote to the VMD enquiring about their position on bicillin and were informed that every application for an STA to use bicillin in rabbits had (so far) been refused - because nobody had presented them "with data or any convincing evidence that this combination is the only effective treatment for conditions in rabbits....". The VMD went on to add that, "If unequivocal evidence was presented to the VMD then we would reconsider our position."

Realistically, it is unlikely that any such evidence will emerge. Bicillin is an old-fashioned combination of two penicillins that came off patent years ago, so there's no commercial incentive for manufacturers of the drug to run a complex and costly trial to formally study the effectiveness of bicillin in rabbit. Also, many British vets maintain that there is nothing unique about bicillin, and that other penicillin preparations have just as much chance of working just as well.

Do not be tempted to use smuggled bicillin!

Obtaining and using bicillin (or any other drug not available in the UK) without an STA is a very serious criminal offence, and yet some rabbit owners have been so desperate to help their seriously ill rabbits that they have risked a hefty fine and a criminal record by using bicillin smuggled into the UK from abroad.

Some rabbit owners who obtained bicillin for their bunnies via internet contacts were not aware they were breaking the law. Others knew, but didn't realise the scale of the fine they were risking if caught, which can run to thousands of pounds.

One rabbit vet told the RWA in autumn 2002,
"One of my clients turned up with an un-labelled bottle of what he said was bicillin, and asked me to inject his rabbit with it. I refused. Not only would it be grossly negligent of me to inject an unknown substance of unknown quality into an animal, but by doing so I would be committing a criminal offence as well as the client."

Clients turning up with illegal supplies of bicillin in this way are putting their vet in an impossible situation, as Christine Shield (a Council member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons) explains:

"The Medicines Regulations 1994 states that it is an offence to administer; cause; or permit to be administered an unauthorised veterinary medicinal product. So, vets who co-operate in treating rabbits with illegally obtained bicillin - such as by injecting the rabbits, or supplying needles - could be risking their career. On the other hand, vets have a duty to ensure that the welfare of animals in their care is not compromised. They then have to decide between throwing the client off their books, which might place the rabbit at greater risk, or agreeing to monitor the animal's condition."



Bicillin Facts
What's bicillin?

A combination of penicillin G benzathine plus penicillin G procaine. Bicillin is not available in the UK but rabbit vets in other countries (particularly the United States) have gained considerable experience with it.

What's it used for?

Bicillin has been used to treat abscesses and bone infections(osteomyelitis), especially if surgery has failed or is not an option.

Does it work?

The different treatment options for abscesses & osteomyelitis in rabbits have never been compared in a proper trial. So the only "evidence" for bicillin is in the form of case reports.... but the same applies to surgical alternatives.

Devotees of bicillin (usually rabbit owners) claim near-miraculous results. Many vets aren't quite so convinced, but increasingly regard bicillin as a useful addition to their armoury.

Aren't penicillins dangerous to rabbits?

Penicillins can cause serious or fatal diarrhoea in rabbits. But, given by injection, rather than by mouth, bicillin is remarkably well tolerated. Nevertheless, the risks/benefits have to be carefully weighed up by the prescribing vet.



This information is brought to you by the Rabbit Welfare Fund - the charitable wing of the Rabbit Welfare Association. If you love rabbits, please consider supporting the Rabbit Welfare Fund. You can make a donation, or you may like to join the RWA. The £17.50 adult subscription includes a subscription to "Rabbiting On", a fabulous quarterly magazine packed with health, behaviour and care advice to help you build a wonderful relationship with your bunny - whether s/he lives indoors or out.

The original version of this article was written by Dr Linda Dykes MBBS (Hons) MRCSEd A&E and Owen Davies BVSc MRCVS. It appeared in "Rabbit Health Matters", Rabbiting On, Summer 2001.

This completely revised version was prepared by Dr Linda Dykes, Owen Davies, and Judith Brown MRCVS in April 2003.


Copyright © BHRA 1999


I suspect the problem is tooth root related. The Baytril/Septrin may not be able to reach the 'pockets' of infection in sufficient concentrations due to the purulent nature of the mucus/pus.
Nebulising abx can be more effective. I am nebulising Michael with Baytril at the moment.

Perhaps a cephalosporin like Cephalexin might be worth a try. A moderate risk abx re gut dysbiosis, but not as risky as Depocillin.

Janex :)
 
Last edited:
Also...pasteurella bunnies may need to be on antibiotics long term, or even for the rest of their lives.

My Smokey is on long term baytril ATM (since beginning of January) and it stops her symptoms getting any worse.

I reckon you *might* have more luck with longer corses of antibiotics. I've heard of snuffles responding to baytril after 3 months :shock:

Apparently the only reason that bicilin isn't legal in the UK is because a 'rabbit medicine' isn't seen as worthy of tests to get it licenced here :x. People often presume that the fact it isn't licenced must mean it's dangerous...which is rubbish :roll:

Good luck :thumb:
 
Bicillin is not 'legal' in the UK.


I suspect the problem is tooth root related. The Baytril/Septrin may not be able to reach the 'pockets' of infection in sufficient concentrations due to the purulent nature of the mucus/pus.
Nebulising abx can be more effective. I am nebulising Michael with Baytril at the moment.

Perhaps a cephalosporin like Cephalexin might be worth a try. A moderate risk abx re gut dysbiosis, but not as risky as Depocillin.

Janex :)

I must have got it muddled with something else *scratches head* will have a look later, Im all ways doing this. Maybe it was Depocillin I was thinking of or maybe it was Bicillin and I read it on a US website. :oops:

Is Cephalexin Injection only?

Amy if she has to be on abx indefinately so be it, but there is no point if its not actually helping her
 
I must have got it muddled with something else *scratches head* will have a look later, Im all ways doing this. Maybe it was Depocillin I was thinking of or maybe it was Bicillin and I read it on a US website. :oops:

Is Cephalexin Injection only?

Amy if she has to be on abx indefinately so be it, but there is no point if its not actually helping her

Cephalexin can be given orally but *personally* I'd rather give it via subcutaneous injection

Janex :)
 
:wave:HI AGAIN JANE, THANKYOU FOR THAT INFO ON BILLIN, ONLY IVE BEEN MITHERING ABOUT THIS FOR MY 3YR LOP WHOS JUST HAD 2ND ABCESS OP (YOU PROBALLY REMEMBER WHEN U SENT ME A THREAD TO ASK ABOUT MEDECAM).IVE BEEN TOLD THAT BICILLIN WAS A GOOD SUCESS, SO WHEN I WAS PRESCRIBED 2 LOTS OF BAYTRIL AFTER BILLYS OP I WAS WORRIED I WASNT DOING ENOUGH FOR HIM.THANKYOU SO MUCH AGAIN JANE.:D
 
I am picking up some stronger Baytril for Lexie tomorrow to tie her over to her appointment Tuesday when I will ask Anneke about Cephalexin.....which I assume is off-licence?
 
Jane, the Baytril which is nebulised....is it the oral or injectable form and whats the dose rate?
 
I used injectable Baytril mixed with saline. I used the same dose as per systemic Baytril - 10mg/kg. Takes about 10 mins to nebulise using a mask. I assume it'd be the same using a chamber :?

Janex :)
 
I used injectable Baytril mixed with saline. I used the same dose as per systemic Baytril - 10mg/kg. Takes about 10 mins to nebulise using a mask. I assume it'd be the same using a chamber :?

Janex :)

Im going to send you a PM, long story :rolleyes:
 
The Baytril/Septrin may not be able to reach the 'pockets' of infection in sufficient concentrations due to the purulent nature of the mucus/pus.

I'd agree with this - the bacteria may theoretically be killed by the antibiotic, but if the antibiotic can't reach the pockets of infection then it's not going to help. Septrin is inactivated by the presence of lots of pus, and baytril doesn't have great tissue penetration. Chronic snuffles can leave deep abscesses hence it's very hard to get rid of totally and needs deeply penetrating antibiotics. With Santa I have been having the best success with long acting oxytetracycline - tetracyclines have good affinity for respiratory tissue and there are also anecdotal reports that work better in humans in conjunction with bisolvon.
 
Back
Top