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View Full Version : 'Charlie Marked' ?-U/D Another Question for WalnutEarth on Page 2!!



Jack's-Jane
20-02-2008, 01:47 PM
What is this when refering to the markings of a Bun

:?

Janex

Sooz
20-02-2008, 01:50 PM
I Think Its A Butterfly Marked Rabbit Which Has Too Much 'white' And Not Enough Coloured Markings.

Thea & Bobbin
20-02-2008, 01:51 PM
A charlie is a lightly marked rabbit it has less the 10% color the rest white

I think it may be a US term?

WalnutEarth626
20-02-2008, 01:52 PM
Its like English markings, ie spots on the sides, stripe down the back and typically a 'Charlie Chaplin' moustache (hence the name ;))

You get them when you mate a butterfly to a butterfly - doubling up ont he butterfly gene just means the markings go to pot! :lol:

When i post up some piccies in my thread later I'll post up piccies of a Charlie German lop I hand reared from 3 weeks old so you can see. :D

Sooz
20-02-2008, 01:52 PM
I THINK WE CAN GUESS WHERE THE 'CHARLIE' CAME FROM :rolleyes:

Jack's-Jane
20-02-2008, 01:54 PM
Oh thanks. I was reading something about breeding.........:shock:.... ( thats got a few tongues wagging ) and the term was mentioned and I had never heard of it before

Janex

Rowan
20-02-2008, 02:01 PM
Think my recent rescue Lola is one of these. Guess they're rejects of the breeding process :( but I think she's gorgeous!

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/lemonshoelace/DSCF2442.jpg

The Charlie markings are a stripe down the back, a few spots on each side (instead of having lots) and a mustache instead of the whole coloured nose area (yes, hence the term "Charlie" after Mr Chaplin) Think they also usually still have a spot on each cheek, coloured ears and markings round the eyes.

WalnutEarth626
20-02-2008, 02:13 PM
Yes shes a Charlie, but they're not rejects!! Thats a bit harsh. Charlies are actually very useful in a breeding program, if you mate them back to a solid rabbit you get a full litter of butterflies and the legend is that they'll be perfectly marked but I think thats more wishful thinking! :lol: Also as Charlies are so pretty they are easy to find pet homes for, more so than their agouti or black counterparts :(

Jack's-Jane
20-02-2008, 03:04 PM
Yes shes a Charlie, but they're not rejects!! Thats a bit harsh. Charlies are actually very useful in a breeding program, if you mate them back to a solid rabbit you get a full litter of butterflies and the legend is that they'll be perfectly marked but I think thats more wishful thinking! :lol: Also as Charlies are so pretty they are easy to find pet homes for, more so than their agouti or black counterparts :(

I adore Agoutis and Blacks. I cant understand why some people think they are a 'boring' colour. Mind you, I'd adore a Rabbit even if he/she was fluorescent green with purple points!! :lol::lol:

Janex :wave:

Thea & Bobbin
20-02-2008, 03:04 PM
I adore Agoutis and Blacks. I cant understand why some people think they are a 'boring' colour. Mind you, I'd adore a Rabbit even if he/she was fluorescent green with purple points!! :lol::lol:

Janex :wave:

There's an idea!! :shock: :lol:

Crystal butterfly
20-02-2008, 03:15 PM
lol thanks to this thread i now know what my Flopsy was :lol: he had a brown stipe down his back with a few surrounding brown spots :love: but do you only get them from 2 butterfly marked parents? because flopsy's dad was a butterfly but his mum Crystal isnt :? but maybe one of her parents were? :? breeding is so confusing well to me anyway lol

Becki xX
20-02-2008, 03:17 PM
Someone told me Tilly-May was charlie marked? Not sure if Rhia is or not X

WalnutEarth626
20-02-2008, 03:23 PM
lol thanks to this thread i now know what my Flopsy was :lol: he had a brown stipe down his back with a few surrounding brown spots :love: but do you only get them from 2 butterfly marked parents? because flopsy's dad was a butterfly but his mum Crystal isnt :? but maybe one of her parents were? :? breeding is so confusing well to me anyway lol

You can get them out of Butterfly x solid matings yes - it just means although the rabbit looks like a charlie it is genetically just a badly marked butterfly. So if you were to mate one of them to a solid you wouldn't get a full butterfly litter. (Not that that matters to any of you but i thought you might be interested :lol:)

WalnutEarth626
20-02-2008, 03:24 PM
Someone told me Tilly-May was charlie marked? Not sure if Rhia is or not X

Rhias facial markings are so good I rather suspect shes a poorly marked butterfly as opposed to a charlie.

Becki xX
20-02-2008, 03:27 PM
Rhias facial markings are so good I rather suspect shes a poorly marked butterfly as opposed to a charlie.

What is the difference between a poorly marked butterfly & a charlie? :oops: X

Crystal butterfly
20-02-2008, 03:29 PM
ah thats interesting, not like im planning on breeding but its great learning something new :) i never really did understand genetics and colors and stuff lol

Deelove
20-02-2008, 03:34 PM
This has been a very interesting thread. Great to be able to learn genetic stuff from a learned breeder.

Jack's-Jane
20-02-2008, 03:38 PM
Walnut how would Michael's marking be descibed ?

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b27/Jan-bun/Picture696.jpg

And my Jack was a Castor Rex, yes ?
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b27/Jan-bun/Rabbits2/Picture531.jpg

And Zac a Cinnamon ?
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b27/Jan-bun/Rabbits2/Picture1614.jpg

Janex

BinkyBun
20-02-2008, 04:22 PM
Walnutearth has told me before that my gorgeous Annie is charlie marked.:D

WalnutEarth626
20-02-2008, 04:34 PM
What is the difference between a poorly marked butterfly & a charlie? :oops: X

Physically they can look identical, its only genetically they are different. :)

WalnutEarth626
20-02-2008, 04:37 PM
Walnut how would Michael's marking be descibed ?

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b27/Jan-bun/Picture696.jpg

Yes Michael is charlie marked, but because hes a rex he'd probably be called a broken.

And my Jack was a Castor Rex, yes ?
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b27/Jan-bun/Rabbits2/Picture531.jpg

Yes

And Zac a Cinnamon ?
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b27/Jan-bun/Rabbits2/Picture1614.jpg

Umm rex are really not my forte and its hard to tell from that photo but I'd have said hes a caster rex still, not a cinnamon. Cinammons are actually rather pale and bright compared to caster.

Janex


Does that help?

Snowy
20-02-2008, 04:38 PM
Its like English markings, ie spots on the sides, stripe down the back and typically a 'Charlie Chaplin' moustache (hence the name ;))

You get them when you mate a butterfly to a butterfly - doubling up ont he butterfly gene just means the markings go to pot! :lol:

When i post up some piccies in my thread later I'll post up piccies of a Charlie German lop I hand reared from 3 weeks old so you can see. :D

Call me dim of you like but I really have to ask.....So if you mate two bunnies with perfect markings, their babies wouldn't be perfectly marked like thier parents?, or am I reading it wrong?

WalnutEarth626
20-02-2008, 04:42 PM
Call me dim of you like but I really have to ask.....So if you mate two bunnies with perfect markings, their babies wouldn't be perfectly marked like thier parents?, or am I reading it wrong?

Oh I wish it were that easy! No unfortunately mating 2 rabbits with perfect markings does not guarantee you perfectly marked babies - it increases your odds but due to modifiers and all sorts of genetic wizardy you could still get them coming out badly marked. Butterflies are the hardest to get right which is why you see so many pretty pets about :)

Jack's-Jane
20-02-2008, 04:49 PM
Does that help?

Yes, as I always used to refer to Zac as a Castor but then someone said he is a Cinnamon. Perhaps he's a Castormon !! :lol::lol:

I have a book on Rex genetics........Oh my its mind boggling :shock:

Janex

Snowy
20-02-2008, 04:50 PM
Oh I wish it were that easy! No unfortunately mating 2 rabbits with perfect markings does not guarantee you perfectly marked babies - it increases your odds but due to modifiers and all sorts of genetic wizardy you could still get them coming out badly marked. Butterflies are the hardest to get right which is why you see so many pretty pets about :)

Hmm, and what's a modifier?

Willow_Warren
20-02-2008, 05:07 PM
Crikey, this thread has had me thinking way back to the genetics part of the A-level biology! It was the only bit I was any good at :oops: All very interesting & all the bunnies are lovely!

Hannah

WalnutEarth626
20-02-2008, 05:10 PM
Hmm, and what's a modifier?

Ok we're going to get a little bit technical now: rabbit genotypes are like this

AaBbCcDdEe

Each letter dicates a colour so AA would be agouti. But as we all know there isn't just one shade of agouti, there are 100's and those different shades are all down to modifiers so it could be A++++--A---++ or something like that!!

I'm not a genetics whizz this is just what I've picked up over the years. Did that make sense?

Thea & Bobbin
20-02-2008, 05:11 PM
Ok we're going to get a little bit technical now: rabbit genotypes are like this

AaBbCcDdEe

Each letter dicates a colour so AA would be agouti. But as we all know there isn't just one shade of agouti, there are 100's and those different shades are all down to modifiers so it could be A++++--A---++ or something like that!!

I'm not a genetics whizz this is just what I've picked up over the years. Did that make sense?

Yes Miss!! ;) :lol:

Deelove
20-02-2008, 05:12 PM
Ooh, Walnut earth can you shed any light on my dalmatian rex question on Raven's thread?


Wouldn't it be better to have looked for one with less spots to breed with Lola to balance out her spots being bunched together?

I always understood that you should sort of look for the opposite. I.e. If you have one with too few markings you would breed with one with too many and then you would get balanced kits. Or does it not work like that at all?

Jack's-Jane
20-02-2008, 05:15 PM
Ok we're going to get a little bit technical now: rabbit genotypes are like this

AaBbCcDdEe

Each letter dicates a colour so AA would be agouti. But as we all know there isn't just one shade of agouti, there are 100's and those different shades are all down to modifiers so it could be A++++--A---++ or something like that!!

I'm not a genetics whizz this is just what I've picked up over the years. Did that make sense?

Will we be get tested on all this later :shock:

Janex

WalnutEarth626
20-02-2008, 05:16 PM
Ooh, Walnut earth can you shed any light on my dalmatian rex question on Raven's thread?



I always understood that you should sort of look for the opposite. I.e. If you have one with too few markings you would breed with one with too many and then you would get balanced kits. Or does it not work like that at all?

Well I don't breed Dalmation rex but yes that would seem the logical thing to me. I mean if I had 2 butterflies with 2 much white I wouldn't mate them together incase the kits had even more white.

When doing matings I always try and mate complimenting rabbits together, so if I have a doe that lacks shoulder I'll try and mate her to a broad shouldered buck.

Not trying to tread on Ravens toes here as obviously I don't breed dalmation rex so don't know much about them!

Deelove
20-02-2008, 05:22 PM
Thank you! Didn't mean to pit you against each other or anything.

I sort of picked that up through reading articles in fur and feather, so I just wanted to clarify if i had the basic jist right.

Rowan
20-02-2008, 05:29 PM
Thanks for the info Walnut Earth! It's interesting how you can mate two "perfect breeds" and get a mixture of babies and I didn't know about Charlies being able to produce butterflies again. I thought nobody wanted Lola (she came from RSPCA) cos she wasn't suitable for breeding but guess its the usual "just didn't want a rabbit"! I almost called her Charlie too!

Is is true two butterflies can produce babies of all one colour too?

WalnutEarth626
20-02-2008, 05:45 PM
Thanks for the info Walnut Earth! It's interesting how you can mate two "perfect breeds" and get a mixture of babies and I didn't know about Charlies being able to produce butterflies again. I thought nobody wanted Lola (she came from RSPCA) cos she wasn't suitable for breeding but guess its the usual "just didn't want a rabbit"! I almost called her Charlie too!

Is is true two butterflies can produce babies of all one colour too?

Yes in theory 25% of the litter would all be one colour - but rabbits don't often read these rule books so numbers don't always equate! :lol: :roll:

Jack's-Jane
20-02-2008, 06:04 PM
Yes in theory 25% of the litter would all be one colour - but rabbits don't often read these rule books so numbers don't always equate! :lol: :roll:


When do Rabbits EVER play by the rules :rolleyes:

Janex :wave:

babybunnies3
20-02-2008, 06:15 PM
Ooh this is interesting....
So would Meggie be a charlie?!
From what you've said she looks like it from the front.....
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd299/babybunnies3/CNV00143.jpg
But not so much from the side/back? :? She does have more white spots on her back, which are almost symetrical (sp?)
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd299/babybunnies3/CIMG1287.jpg

Deelove
20-02-2008, 06:18 PM
Walnut earth, you should hire yourself out as a bunny colour checker. :lol:
What colour is the rabbit in my sig? If you don't mind. I've been told by an American breeder on another forum that it is called diluted harlequin..

casu consulto
20-02-2008, 06:20 PM
Ooooh, this IS interesting... ^-^
For a rabbit to be marked in the butterfly way, do the markings have to follow any particular pattern about the head and such?

I haven't got a clue what my Bella bunny is, though of course she's bee-yoo-tiful anyway in my opinion... just curious over whether she's either a butterfly or a Charlie. ^^;

Jack's-Jane
20-02-2008, 06:29 PM
Walnut earth, you should hire yourself out as a bunny colour checker. :lol:
What colour is the rabbit in my sig? If you don't mind. I've been told by an American breeder on another forum that it is called diluted harlequin..


He is a bit like my Foster Bun Harry :)

Janex

Thea & Bobbin
20-02-2008, 06:30 PM
Walnut earth, you should hire yourself out as a bunny colour checker. :lol:
What colour is the rabbit in my sig? If you don't mind. I've been told by an American breeder on another forum that it is called diluted harlequin..

Looks like a Dalmatian Lop to me!! :lol:

Deelove
20-02-2008, 08:23 PM
:lol: Yes, I was thinking that when seeing the rex's.

Actually it was my Molly I was told was a diluted harlequin, he and Mina have similar markings, only different colours.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/dilkara/mollylie.jpg

Snowy
20-02-2008, 09:15 PM
Ok we're going to get a little bit technical now: rabbit genotypes are like this

AaBbCcDdEe

Each letter dicates a colour so AA would be agouti. But as we all know there isn't just one shade of agouti, there are 100's and those different shades are all down to modifiers so it could be A++++--A---++ or something like that!!

I'm not a genetics whizz this is just what I've picked up over the years. Did that make sense?

Oh dear, so that's why there are sooooooo many breeders rejects in rescues then, and they just keep breeding and breeding until they get one they like the look of?

These are real live animals that they are messing with, doesn't it bother any of them?

Jack's-Jane
20-02-2008, 09:33 PM
Oh dear, so that's why there are sooooooo many breeders rejects in rescues then, and they just keep breeding and breeding until they get one they like the look of?

These are real live animals that they are messing with, doesn't it bother any of them?

I am sure that a responsible Breeder like WalnutEarth would ensure any mis-marked Buns she bred would go to good Pet homes. Its the irresponsible Breeders who off-load to Petshops and dump on Rescues.

Janex :wave:

IzzyTwig
20-02-2008, 09:40 PM
I have a little diagram of genetics regarding english marked rabbits, selfs and charlies. I'll see if I can find it and scan it in.

Quite interesting, basically saying if you want english marked rabbits you shouldn't breed from two english as you'll end up with selfs and charlies and a few mismarked english, but best to breed from a charlie and a self with english marking genetics to get the best english markings.

Jack's-Jane
20-02-2008, 09:42 PM
I have a little diagram of genetics regarding english marked rabbits, selfs and charlies. I'll see if I can find it and scan it in.

Quite interesting, basically saying if you want english marked rabbits you shouldn't breed from two english as you'll end up with selfs and charlies and a few mismarked english, but best to breed from a charlie and a self with english marking genetics to get the best english markings.


Its like a foreign language!! :lol::lol:

Janex

Deelove
20-02-2008, 09:55 PM
It's very complicated. I have a lot of respect for breeders who actually take the time to learn what is involved rather than just sticking two rabbits together and thinking it will work. :-)

WalnutEarth626
21-02-2008, 12:11 AM
Ooh this is interesting....
So would Meggie be a charlie?!
From what you've said she looks like it from the front.....
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd299/babybunnies3/CNV00143.jpg
But not so much from the side/back? :? She does have more white spots on her back, which are almost symetrical (sp?)
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd299/babybunnies3/CIMG1287.jpg

Meggie is a butterfly, slightly mismarked but a butterfly not a charlie.

WalnutEarth626
21-02-2008, 12:14 AM
:lol: Yes, I was thinking that when seeing the rex's.

Actually it was my Molly I was told was a diluted harlequin, he and Mina have similar markings, only different colours.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/dilkara/mollylie.jpg

Molly and Mina are both Harlequin Butterflies - and absolutely stunning!

WalnutEarth626
21-02-2008, 12:33 AM
Oh dear, so that's why there are sooooooo many breeders rejects in rescues then, and they just keep breeding and breeding until they get one they like the look of?

These are real live animals that they are messing with, doesn't it bother any of them?

I do object to the term rejects - I don't 'reject' any rabbits here, I may have 'surplus' but they're not rejects.

Yes is the answer to your question, trying to get the perfect Show rabbit is not easy - I would love to mate a doe up and place an order for one perfect baby but unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Personally I try to be responsible, I won't be mate any rabbits up if I have any others that I'm trying to rehome. It'd be easy for me to ring somewhere like P@H and they'd take them all - but thats NOT how I work. I try and make sure most of my rabbits go to people I know and vet people I don't know well. I also advise everyone that buys a pet from me to neuter/spay them, and all the people I have kept in contact with have done this.

Jack's-Jane
21-02-2008, 08:21 AM
I do object to the term rejects - I don't 'reject' any rabbits here, I may have 'surplus' but they're not rejects.

Yes is the answer to your question, trying to get the perfect Show rabbit is not easy - I would love to mate a doe up and place an order for one perfect baby but unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Personally I try to be responsible, I won't be mate any rabbits up if I have any others that I'm trying to rehome. It'd be easy for me to ring somewhere like P@H and they'd take them all - but thats NOT how I work. I try and make sure most of my rabbits go to people I know and vet people I don't know well. I also advise everyone that buys a pet from me to neuter/spay them, and all the people I have kept in contact with have done this.

A great example of how it should be done Walnut :thumb:
I bet you are a lot more careful about where your Buns go than are the likes of Petshops and Garden Centres

Janex :wave:

Snowy
21-02-2008, 10:35 AM
I do object to the term rejects - I don't 'reject' any rabbits here, I may have 'surplus' but they're not rejects.


I take your point but it's just words because they are being rejected because they are not perfect in the breeders eyes but I suppose it' the same as the word 'stock', I detest that word being used when talking about animals but breeders use it all the time, oh well!

So that explains why there are so many rabbits 'surplus' to requirements because if you get breeders who are not the full ticket so to speak or children and they breed willy nilly trying to produce something that just isn't going to happen, for example cross breeding or breeding rabbits with a known tendancy to health problems.

Actually, what is happening is animal experimentation without the licence!:shock:

WalnutEarth626
21-02-2008, 11:48 AM
I take your point but it's just words because they are being rejected because they are not perfect in the breeders eyes but I suppose it' the same as the word 'stock', I detest that word being used when talking about animals but breeders use it all the time, oh well!

So that explains why there are so many rabbits 'surplus' to requirements because if you get breeders who are not the full ticket so to speak or children and they breed willy nilly trying to produce something that just isn't going to happen, for example cross breeding or breeding rabbits with a known tendancy to health problems.

Actually, what is happening is animal experimentation without the licence!:shock:

Yes, unfortunately you will get breeders that constantly have does mated so constantly have surplus that needs homing, those are the most likely candidates for rabbits to end up in rescue centres I suppose. Personally anyone that keeps more than about 2 breeds makes me cringe, I don't know how they can concentrate on that many - there are loads of breeds I'd love to have but I know I only have the time and hutch space to properly do one. Just wondering Snowy all the bad breeders you've seen, have they all had multiple breeds or have you come across any specialist breeders?

The genetics section on the breeding forums makes me cringe too 'what will I get if I mate X to A' - and they're told they'll get a load of unstandardised colours that can only be pets. Makes me cross, why can't they mate like to like and do things properly! :roll:

As for the Child breeding thing, if you have sensible parents children breeding is not an issue. I started breeding when i was 11. I had 6 hutches, i wasn't allowed anymore than that, was only allowed to mate up when I needed something to show, and my Mum had told me if it ever got to the stage where I had babies I couldn't rehome I'd have to give up breeding. I remember one doe having a huge litter of 7 so we converted our shed for her to have them in to make sure they all had enough room. They were completely my responsibility, feeding, cleaning out, everything (although obviously my Mum always checked this was done.) And everytime I sold a rabbit she took the money and paid it into my savings account and that was used as my vet bill fund.

Actually talking about that litter that we had to put in the shed, last September at a show a lady I recognised came up and spoke to me, turns out she had bought one of those babies 7 years ago, and she was telling me how spolit he was having the run of their lounge etc. She made my day :D

IzzyTwig
21-02-2008, 12:34 PM
Found that diagram, very simple, but gives you an idea of how genetics work when it comes to breeding specific markings, much trickier than breeding selfs or otters.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2870/geneticsoc6.jpg

WalnutEarth626
21-02-2008, 02:39 PM
Looks a good book, which book is that?

blueboy
21-02-2008, 02:51 PM
This is really interesting. I only made a post on the other thread about my friends rabbit being a rejected pap.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/Fashy/McQueen/mcqueen3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/Fashy/McQueen/spots.jpg

See how his spots are splodged into one another. I dunno if that is a disqualification or anything but I am guessing that this is why this breed was in a pet shop.

IzzyTwig
21-02-2008, 07:52 PM
Looks a good book, which book is that?

Got it from Oxfam for 59p :lol:

It's an old RSPCA Rabbit book from the early 80's. It's alright, but very outdated. They say bucks need to live on their own to prevent unwanted litters with does and fighting with other bucks. It seems neutering was not the norm when the book was published as there is only one reference to it in the whole book and it's only in passing to say a castrated male can cause a doe to have a phantom pregnancy.

ecudc
22-02-2008, 03:14 PM
I find rabbit genetics interesting. It's amazing when you see julias foster babies which all came out of an agouti mum but they are agouti, a sort of a pumpkin colour and I think a white and black splodgy one.

Can I ask, is honey a sooty fawn

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb224/ecudc/P1000637.jpg

sillyrabbit
22-02-2008, 03:37 PM
This is all very interesting, and complicated :oops: :lol: I dont really get it :oops:

Crystal butterfly
22-02-2008, 03:40 PM
This is all very interesting, and complicated :oops: :lol: I dont really get it :oops:

im glad im not the only one :oops::lol:

tried reading up on everything last year and my face was like this :| i just wasnt getting it lol

sillyrabbit
22-02-2008, 03:47 PM
im glad im not the only one :oops::lol:

tried reading up on everything last year and my face was like this :| i just wasnt getting it lol

:lol: :lol: :lol: Im not even going to TRY and read about it because I will just end up more confused :oops: :lol:

WalnutEarth626
22-02-2008, 05:13 PM
I find rabbit genetics interesting. It's amazing when you see julias foster babies which all came out of an agouti mum but they are agouti, a sort of a pumpkin colour and I think a white and black splodgy one.

Can I ask, is honey a sooty fawn

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb224/ecudc/P1000637.jpg

Yes she is.