Does everyone dose regularly with 'panacur'?

[parsnipbun]

In the past I have used 'panacur' (actually I use Lapizole but its the same thing) when I see any signs of EC - either a full head tilt case or just a 'worrying bit of wobble' or weight/condition loss.

I know that some of my rabbits have had EC and to be honest that probably means thay have all had it at some time and either 'shed' it or not . Those that have had an 'active' case have always been treated. 'New' rabbits I have given a 'precautionary' dose (9days) to on advice by the vets. At present they all seem very well (gosh - foolish thing to say!!).

However I get the impression from this forum that some of you dose on a regular basis as a precaution.

I have to say the thought of 'precautionary' dosing of 11 rabbits of whom 10 abhore any kind of medicine puts me off (two are unruly giants of 4 kilos plus who LOATHE being picked up and have huge muscles etc, and another two are houdinis even in the bunny burrito hold and need two people to hold them down). But if everyone else does it and feels its important then I will give it real consideration.

My questions are:
1. do many of you precationary dose regularly even when there are no signs of active EC? (but I know it is 'in' the colony)
2. If you do dose; do you do it for 9 days, 4 weeks or 6 weeks?
3. And how often do you do it? (once a year, twice a year??)

(thinks: If I have to do 11 rabbits once a day for 6 weeks twice a year I will have to give up my job!!! and get shares in the company that makes lapizole!: Or maybe Jack's-Jane could come and stay????).

Advice please!

[Sooz]

I dose all the rescues on arrival with 9 days.
I dose all the permenants every 6 months with 9 days.
I dose anybun with symptoms which suggest EC *may* be the cause for 6 weeks.
I dose this rabbits partner for 6 weeks.

Whilst 9 days will not eradicate an EC infection in a asymptomatic rabbit it would protect a non-carrier from contracting the parasite, or at least thats the theory.

[Gem]

I do a nine day course for all 11 every six months

[LionheadLuver]

I've nearly finished a 9-day course of Panacur for my girls. I recommend putting the Panacur on a pellet or a piece of veg, as it's soooooooo much easier than holding them down to put it into their mouth. I plan to give the girls a Panacur course every six months.

[parsnipbun]

Thanks for those replies - any others???

Also thoughts on whether 9 days, 3 weeks or 6 weeks is what you need to do?

[BevBunny]

I've started doing precautionary 9 days courses every so often. I'm aiming for at least every 6 months but I'm also doing it in between if I think there is a need - Charlie had EC last summer and I know stress can be a factor in reoccurence so I'm just in the process of doing them both as theres a lot of change at our house at the moment and they're a bit jumpy, also I'm driving them to Birmingham at the weekend to stay with my mum whilst all the noisy building happens.

The way I look at it is that it doens't cost much to buy panacur (or lapizole) and I've chosen to have them so I should be prepared to go through the hassle of doing the necessary drugs etc, so yes its a slight pain but having gone through EC with Charlie its worth it.

Btw I buy the paste and put it in their little biscuit treats (I split them and make a panacur sandwich!) and my bunny sitter was telling me the other day that she buys panacur liquid (i'm sure she said the one for horses is the cheapest and to just make sure its 10%) and puts it on pieces of weetabix, does a massive batch at a time, lets them dry and just feeds one to each bun. :) That might make mass medication a bit easier?

[honeybunny]

I do not use panacur 9 day course as I think..personal opinion..it is a waste of time..
the 9 day course is a worming treatment..therefore " if " your bun has worms...
it can be used to eradicate them..
but
if your buns had worms...which can carry the EC bugs..then a 4-6 week course would be needed to make sure the bun is clear of EC.

The 9 day course is not long enough to deal with EC.....and I think there is no point in giving the bun a 9 day course and then waiting to see if any other signs of the disease occur..as delay in treating this can mean permanent damage or death.

And just to add..with all the rabbits we've had through the rescue..and including all my friends and families animals..I've only ever known one rabbit with worms.

[BevBunny]

And just to add..with all the rabbits we've had through the rescue..and including all my friends and families animals..I've only ever known one rabbit with worms.

Hi Jill, I have a slightly different take on this but I could be totally wrong. Are we talking nematode worms here? ie 1 cm long, colourless little things. I thought that buns had them in their gut all the time, and when they were stressed they're more likely to multiply and cause problems. I've had to treat Charlie for worms a fair few times in the past, especially as he's got older. For example, when he has his vaccinations he gets a bit 'low' afterwards and often ends up with worms and/or chaetyella/mites. My vet says that they're both their in low numbers all the time and when Charlie is feeling a bit down they 'take over'.

[honeybunny]

Bev
There are several types of nematodes..some of which can be presnt and cause no trouble in small quantities...(these often cause problems when they have multiplied in very young rabbits and cause various enteritis-type problems).....until set off by stress and or illness, ect..as you have said.

rabbits can also be infected by tapeworms..passed by domestic cats and dogs..and also foxes..then picked up by grazing buns..

I, as already said... have only known one bun to have had worms that we have seen in/on the rabbits droppings

Due to the "life-cycle" / re infection of/by the Ec spores..a course of treatment at least 4 weeks long is needed

my statement on the 9 day course still stands as the impression given on this and other forums ..is people see the 9 day course as a cure/prevention of EC..not a wormer..
in fact several people have been told to use only the 9 day course by their vet when the rabbit has presented EC symptoms..so even vets seem confused by the marketing of this product

[IzzyTwig]

I've never actually used Panacur, never had a bun with worms, or with EC. *touch wood*

But I'd use it if needs be. It seems we've been extremely lucky with all our buns over the years.

[parsnipbun]

Just to clarify

Its the EC rather than worms that I am concerned about - none of the rabbits have worms.

twigs

[Sooz]

Bev
There are several types of nematodes..some of which can be presnt and cause no trouble in small quantities...(these often cause problems when they have multiplied in very young rabbits and cause various enteritis-type problems).....until set off by stress and or illness, ect..as you have said.

rabbits can also be infected by tapeworms..passed by domestic cats and dogs..and also foxes..then picked up by grazing buns..

I, as already said... have only known one bun to have had worms that we have seen in/on the rabbits droppings

Due to the "life-cycle" / re infection of/by the Ec spores..a course of treatment at least 4 weeks long is needed

my statement on the 9 day course still stands as the impression given on this and other forums ..is people see the 9 day course as a cure/prevention of EC..not a wormer..
in fact several people have been told to use only the 9 day course by their vet when the rabbit has presented EC symptoms..so even vets seem confused by the marketing of this product

9 days is a preventative course. I give it to all the rescues on arrival to protect them incase they are not already asymptomatic carriers. Whilst 50% of rabbits register for exposure to EC that does not mean 50% are actively carrying the infection and these are the bunnies that need protection from the asymptomatic carriers.

Unless you are prepared to titre test all rabbits it is impossible to know what category each falls into. For the sake of a few pence and 2 minutes of my time each day I personally feel happier knowing I have done my best to control the spread.

So the 9 days is not about 'curing' those infected, but protecting those that are not.

You could argue that all rabbits should be given a 6 week course however.

[honeybunny]

Yep but my point is..the 9 day course worms them..it doesn't prevent EC..if the rabbit is going to be exposed to it..
you say you panacur all new arrivals to protect them from carriers..but after the 9 days is up they will still be at risk from any asymptomatic carriers you may have...:?
the only way to stop the spread is quarantine and hygiene..which I know you are hot on:D..A bun picking up EC spores needs a 4-6 week course for it to be effective..
as said before as i understand it..the 9 day is a wormer..not a cure or protection for EC:?

[SarahP]

I think E.Cuniculi is absolutely rife in pet bunnies. If I ever have another one I really won't know what to do, as a 9 day course doesn't seem like it would be very effective, but I wouldn't want to administer a 6 week course unnecessarily.

[Sooz]

as said before as i understand it..the 9 day is a wormer..not a cure or protection for EC:?

No its a preventative course for EC, as well as a traditional wormer, let me find you the manufacturers literature. Its not a cure, think of it more like a vaccination.

[SarahP]

If the theory is that most buns have some level of EC in them, Panacur would certainly bring the levels down, even at 9 days only. But I don't see that it could prevent EC from developing, as its effects in the body are so short-lived.

[Sooz]

http://www.intervet.co.uk/binaries/92_127294.pdf

With this extract:

The efficacy of fenbendazole for
preventing experimental infection of
Encephalitozoon cuniculi has been
investigated.3
Rabbits were infected with E.cuniculi
during a 9 day treatment period with
fenbendazole:
 Treated rabbits remained
seronegative and the parasite could
not be isolated from brain tissue.
 Untreated controls seroconverted
and spores were isolated.
Fenbendazole is effective for
E.cuniculi prevention in rabbits.

So it suggests that a rabbit on a 9 day course of Fenbendazole when it first comes into contact with a spore is protected. However in the case of a rabbit being infected by its partner I would use 6 weeks on both as the partner will be expelling spores over a prolonged period.....the above ws laboratory controlled.

[Sooz]

If the theory is that most buns have some level of EC in them, Panacur would certainly bring the levels down, even at 9 days only. But I don't see that it could prevent EC from developing, as its effects in the body are so short-lived.

TBH its all a matter of when you start worming, i.e. what stage the spores lifecycle is at during primary infestation. Its very hit and miss but Fenbendazole is a safe drug and over a 9 day period my personal feelings are its worth doing.

Who knows it my even bring levels down sufficiently in a carrier to allow them to fight it off with their own antibodies and not develop active EC which they were otherwise bound for. (This is entirely speculation)

[SarahP]

TBH its all a matter of when you start worming, i.e. what stage the spores lifecycle is at during primary infestation. Its very hit and miss but Fenbendazole is a safe drug and over a 9 day period my personal feelings are its worth doing.

Who knows it my even bring levels down sufficiently in a carrier to allow them to fight it off with their own antibodies and not develop active EC which they were otherwise bound for. (This is entirely speculation)

That's true - I never thought of that possibility.

[doorkeeper]

I do all the rabbits here every 6 months and those with symptoms for 28 days every time they show symptoms or every 3 months which ever is soonest.

I just finished dosing 52 rabbits for 9 days and am currently doing 10 for 28 days, as one of the group that came in together has head tilt, and need to start another batch for 9 days as we have had lots of new arrivals. This is quite a task as there are 141 rabbits here at present! But given the dreadful symptoms the parasite causes it is worth it.

[norrielian]

Nope, I have never wormed any of my rabbits before?

[doorkeeper]

Yep but my point is..the 9 day course worms them..it doesn't prevent EC..if the rabbit is going to be exposed to it..
you say you panacur all new arrivals to protect them from carriers..but after the 9 days is up they will still be at risk from any asymptomatic carriers you may have...:?
the only way to stop the spread is quarantine and hygiene..which I know you are hot on:D..A bun picking up EC spores needs a 4-6 week course for it to be effective..
as said before as i understand it..the 9 day is a wormer..not a cure or protection for EC:?

Actually the dose for worms is completely different and needs to be given for 5 days not 9. The 9 days is for EC but the research was a bit questonable imo not being very applicable to every day life rather than that lab setting.
However I still feel it is worth doing on the assumption that every rabbit is a carrier and it will put the liklihood of their developing symptoms way down. I have seen far too many rabbits with symptoms to want to risk carriers developng them.

I use Panacur 10% rather than the Panacur Rabbit or Lapizole as the later two would be far too expensive in a rescue setting.

[sillyrabbit]

I dont worm mine on a regular basis, my vet felt I didnt need to :? Im confused about this now because it seems most of you do. Beau was treated with a 28 day course when I brought him home, and so was Buu because she had been in the same room as him. But then I kept the two of them completely seperate from Trip and Scarlett who have never been wormed.

I will check with the vet again next week because I cant remember his exact reasons now as it was about a year ago I asked x

[norrielian]

I dont worm mine on a regular basis, my vet felt I didnt need to :? Im confused about this now because it seems most of you do. Beau was treated with a 28 day course when I brought him home, and so was Buu because she had been in the same room as him. But then I kept the two of them completely seperate from Trip and Scarlett who have never been wormed.

I will check with the vet again next week because I cant remember his exact reasons now as it was about a year ago I asked x

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is confused :? and like others have said before, I often get concerned about the amount of stuff we pump into our buns. It's a difficult one.

[IzzyTwig]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is confused :? and like others have said before, I often get concerned about the amount of stuff we pump into our buns. It's a difficult one.

Same here, in my experience buns are extremely hardy creatures and very rarely need veterinary treatment. Yet lots of people on here have lots of ill bunnies and all seem to be huge fans of regular course of medicines as a preventative measure. Maybe there's a link? :? (Hope I won't get attacked for saying that)

[sillyrabbit]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is confused :? and like others have said before, I often get concerned about the amount of stuff we pump into our buns. It's a difficult one.

This is what I think, they already get vaccinations three times a year I dont want to put more into them than I need to :? I just took the word of my vet who told me he didnt feel it was needed on a regular basis. Its only my four buns here though and I dont have others coming in and out so maybe thats had something to do with his reason, like I said I cant remember but will ask again next week.

[SarahP]

Same here, in my experience buns are extremely hardy creatures and very rarely need veterinary treatment. Yet lots of people on here have lots of ill bunnies and all seem to be huge fans of regular course of medicines as a preventative measure. Maybe there's a link? :? (Hope I won't get attacked for saying that)

I'm not going to attack you, as I am questioning all sorts of things at the moment, BUT what I would say is that it is because of my bunnies being ill that I think regular Panacur may well prove to be a necessary part of keeping healthy rabbits now. It's not regular medicine that has caused them to be ill.

It is absolutely not my experience that bunnies are hardy creatures - in fact, my 2 are more fragile than mice! Although I think I've been unlucky, there are so many others on here with very sickly bunnies, so I definitely don't think my 2 are unique. I just really wonder why, and I think E Cuniculi may have a lot to answer for.

[ecudc]

I have a bun who showed signs of active EC. We did a 6 week course for all the buns to try and irradicate. However, it still came back a bit after 3 months. Another 9 day seems to have knocked it on the head but I suspect I will have to repeat every 3 - 6 months to keep them all clear.

[Rabbers]

I have a bun who showed signs of active EC. We did a 6 week course for all the buns to try and irradicate. However, it still came back a bit after 3 months. Another 9 day seems to have knocked it on the head but I suspect I will have to repeat every 3 - 6 months to keep them all clear.


That's exactly my experience too. Mine were both treated for 6 weeks when one had active EC. They are both back onto it again about 4-5 months later as she was showing symptoms again. So it seems that I will keep up with the panacur a few times a year just to keep it away with my two. But if I had never had it in the first place I wouldn't regulaly worm.

[Doncat5]

I think bunny worming is so new its all still a bit sketchy, but I think I've decided to worm my own rabbits, on arrival, with a course of at least 4, maybe 6 weeks, then perhaps twice yearly for 9 nine days. Oh and I'm using the liquid as it saves a fortune, and I can also use it on my 4 cats and dog too, which is a huge advantage.

[Lspacehopper]

Bev
There are several types of nematodes..some of which can be presnt and cause no trouble in small quantities...(these often cause problems when they have multiplied in very young rabbits and cause various enteritis-type problems).....until set off by stress and or illness, ect..as you have said.

rabbits can also be infected by tapeworms..passed by domestic cats and dogs..and also foxes..then picked up by grazing buns..

I, as already said... have only known one bun to have had worms that we have seen in/on the rabbits droppings

Due to the "life-cycle" / re infection of/by the Ec spores..a course of treatment at least 4 weeks long is needed

my statement on the 9 day course still stands as the impression given on this and other forums ..is people see the 9 day course as a cure/prevention of EC..not a wormer..
in fact several people have been told to use only the 9 day course by their vet when the rabbit has presented EC symptoms..so even vets seem confused by the marketing of this product

Jill, what you're saying is actually right. I've just come off a 5 day University course run by AMTRA to become an SQP licensed to prescribe and provide POM meds such as flea and worming for cats and dogs and small animals and treatments for horses.

I questioned the use of Panacur as a regular treatment and was actually told that it's a waste of time to use it as a preventative. It should only be used if signs are presented, or another rabbit in close proximity presents with symptoms.

All very interesting, and I do think a lot of confusion surrounds the product.

[Doncat5]

Jill, what you're saying is actually right. I've just come off a 5 day University course run by AMTRA to become an SQP licensed to prescribe and provide POM meds such as flea and worming for cats and dogs and small animals and treatments for horses.

I questioned the use of Panacur as a regular treatment and was actually told that it's a waste of time to use it as a preventative. It should only be used if signs are presented, or another rabbit in close proximity presents with symptoms.

All very interesting, and I do think a lot of confusion surrounds the product.


Well thats interesting, and I'm glad its a general confusion going on, not just me!

Unless youve had a rabbit tested you cant always tell, so maybe I'd be better doing a 4-6 week course on my own buns, twice yearly, or 4 times?????

[NickieM]

OK then just to see if I have got the drift here.

I have two buns which arrived at different times. Neither have been wormed. So I gather from LS??? that I don't need to use Panacur? as a preventative, but only if they exhibit signs of infection.

What are the signs of infection? And if these appeared, I would take them to the vet and he would prescribe Panacur??

Have I got it right? Obviously, rescues or foster homers are going to have a greater risk because of the different bunnies coming and going?

Sorry to be so uncertain, but I have wondered about this stuff for a while.

[SarahP]

I think the biggest difficulty is picking up the signs of infection, and therefore treating. I don't think anyone really knows the best way yet (including vets), but my preferred approach would be to do some kind of preventative Panacur treatment. The main reason I say this is because my poor bunnies' EC was undetected for a long time (some 10 months), because they didn't exhibit the usual symptoms.

[honeybunny]

Nickie..if you want to worm them..use the 9 day course..
but if they show any sigsn of EC...head tilt. lethargy...incontinence, hind limb weakness..then they need to see a vet..and a 4-6 week course of panacur..along with anti bioctics and some vets will prescribe steroids too..and ..as when all buns are on anti b's..some probioctic to help their get maintenance.....

some people do think the 9 day can prevent Ec developing..and I'm not saying 100% it can't.....my personal opinion is it can't..but that is just my personal opinion..not a professional vet opinion..although most vets seem to differ anyway :?

clear as mud!!!:lol:

[NickieM]

Well that cleared that up :?:?:?

[Sooz]

The literature from the manufacturer suggests, in a laboratory setting, 9 days of Panacur prevented rabbits who had never been exposed before to EC developing EC infection after exposure during the course.

Therefor I base my arguement that highly concentrated rabbit environments may benefit from all arrivals being dosed with Panacur.

Also Panacur is a very safe drug and it has no lower age limit for use* so I fail to see how its responsible for my rabbits developing illnesses. Especially as none of them have yet been linked to EC since we started worming regularly :?

*from the manufacturers own mouths upon enquiry from my vets.

[parsnipbun]

I know this may sound silly - but I am really glad I asked this as it has shown to me that I (and my vet) are not the only ones who seem to be getting contrary advice/recommendations from everyone!

I do worry slightly about giving it as one of mine went severely downhill with her EC just a few days AFTER I started to give it . . .hence my question at the start I guess (that and I am afraid that I really do find it tricky to find the time to dose 11 extremely recalcitrant and muscular free bunnies every morning on my own before a very very long days work).

The balance of opinion (!) seems to be that 6 weeks for all is worth it if you have any known EC 'carriers'.

(but I may have that wrong!).

[IzzyTwig]

I'm not going to attack you, as I am questioning all sorts of things at the moment, BUT what I would say is that it is because of my bunnies being ill that I think regular Panacur may well prove to be a necessary part of keeping healthy rabbits now. It's not regular medicine that has caused them to be ill.

It is absolutely not my experience that bunnies are hardy creatures - in fact, my 2 are more fragile than mice! Although I think I've been unlucky, there are so many others on here with very sickly bunnies, so I definitely don't think my 2 are unique. I just really wonder why, and I think E Cuniculi may have a lot to answer for.

Everyone has different experiences with rabbits and their health. I'm not suggesting that the medicine is causing ill health, but perhaps cause them not build up their own defences so much so when they've been off a particular preventative treatment for a while they've defences are lower. Which is why I'm wary of pumping my buns full of medicines, but if they needed panacur I would use it.

Though I can understand the regular use of such treatment in rescues considering the number of new bunnies coming in and out as the risks of illnesses speading are far higher.

[Sooz]

Everyone has different experiences with rabbits and their health. I'm not suggesting that the medicine is causing ill health, but perhaps cause them not build up their own defences so much so when they've been off a particular preventative treatment for a while they've defences are lower. Which is why I'm wary of pumping my buns full of medicines, but if they needed panacur I would use it.

In that case it would mean the Panacur was actually working, otherwise it would have no effect on the immune response in terms of developing antibodies. In other words if the Panacur did not prevent EC developing the antibodie count (and titre test- which measures immune system reactions to EC) would be unaffected. If the Panacur did work then the antibodie count would be lower. Which places us in a bit of a scientific dilemma.

I also point out that my rabbits live in a rabbit intensive environment, continually bombarded with bacteria, and the rescues have lower immune responses due to stress, IMHO they need all the support they can get.

[Nicola3]

Hi everyone :wave:

Can I just ask...... after the 9 day preventative course how long are rabbits supposed to be protected against EC for? Will the 9 day course protect a rabbit for a period of time after they have finished the course and if so approx how long for?

Thanks for any advice you can give.

Nicola and Harvey xxx

[abbymarysmokey]

Hi everyone :wave:

Can I just ask...... after the 9 day preventative course how long are rabbits supposed to be protected against EC for? Will the 9 day course protect a rabbit for a period of time after they have finished the course and if so approx how long for?

Thanks for any advice you can give.

Nicola and Harvey xxx

I was wondering about that too :?

[Nicola3]

*Bump*

Does anyobody know the answer?

Nicola and Harvey xxx

[Sooz]

I think thats the kind of question that will require a call to the manufacturers as Im afraid I dont know the answer to that either. I expect they will say 3 months however.

[honeybunny]

As I see it....The 9 day course WILL NOT protect your bun against EC..it will worm them...

if after the 9 days your bun comes into contact with ec spores..the previous course of medicine won't stop it contracting it

also a good point made by someone else on the phone to me last night ..
\if everyone starts using the 9 day course regularly..won't this help to lessen the effect of the drug on the disease?
so when you do get a case of EC the drug may not work aswell due to the overuse of medication

[Sooz]

The same can be said of the myxi vaccine (infact it seems to be happening infront of our eyes) but I dont think everyone is going to stop using that.

I am going to continue to panacur any rabbits I see as at risk until such time as good solid research proves Im wasting my time and money doing so or a more effective treatment is found.

[honeybunny]

y view is I'd rather vhd vacs ...and treat a bun showing signs which could be ec with a course of panacur lasting 4-6 weeks ..which is what's needed to get rid of the disease.
As said if you are saying you are simply worming the buns fine..that is your choice to do..
But 9 days is neither treatment nor protection from..EC:?

We all have our own viewpoints here!:D

[Jack's-Jane]

Playing devils advocate here but at this stage no-one knows the full story re EC.
It has even been suggested that a Bun would need 'heavy exposure' to the spores before they became EC Positive. And even then they may just excrete the spores without ever becoming ill.
Until there is yet more research into EC then I guess we have to go with our own Vets advice and that based on our own experience.
A 9 day course will eradicate the EC Parasite but *if* the parasite has already shed spores then the spores may not be eradicated.

Personally I use a 9 day course for all new Rabbits and I only treat for 6 weeks if a Bun develops clinical signs of EC. Although Fenbendazole is relatively 'safe' it is not without possible side-effects and until more research is done my *unqualified* opinion is that a 9 day 'routine course' of Fenbendazole twice a year is sufficient

Janex

[abbymarysmokey]

also a good point made by someone else on the phone to me last night ..
\if everyone starts using the 9 day course regularly..won't this help to lessen the effect of the drug on the disease?
so when you do get a case of EC the drug may not work aswell due to the overuse of medication

Very true...this is currently being seen with horse wormers.

[Sooz]

Playing devils advocate here but at this stage no-one knows the full story re EC.
It has even been suggested that a Bun would need 'heavy exposure' to the spores before they became EC Positive. And even then they may just excrete the spores without ever becoming ill.
Until there is yet more research into EC then I guess we have to go with our own Vets advice and that based on our own experience.
A 9 day course will eradicate the EC Parasite but *if* the parasite has already shed spores then the spores may not be eradicated.

Personally I use a 9 day course for all new Rabbits and I only treat for 6 weeks if a Bun develops clinical signs of EC. Although Fenbendazole is relatively 'safe' it is not without possible side-effects and until more research is done my *unqualified* opinion is that a 9 day 'routine course' of Fenbendazole twice a year is sufficient

Janex

Then your vet is giving exactly the same advice as mine Jane. Anita also agree's twice yearly or times of high risk are when Panacur are needed. Confusingly this goes against the manufacturers advice for quarterly.

Why will no-one fund more research? :(

[honeybunny]

I think we are all agreed more research into EC is needed...and that vets need to be educated as much as possible on this as we are all given different advice

[halon]

Personally I wouldnt put too much store on the manufaturers advice. Obviously they're going to want you to buy it as much as possible!

Having read some of the research available on the web e.g.
it does seem that a 9 day course can have a temporary preventative effect, and can be used to treat rabbits with EC - basicly what Jane said!

I dont think there's really been enough research on either the 9-day reatment or the 6 week treatment.

But on the balance of evidence I'm going with a 9 day course every 6 months for now.

The Rabbit Welfare fund has previousy made a grant to an EC study (about prevalence of the disease not treatment), so perhaps they'll fund somthing in future....? Anyone know?

http://www.houserabbit.co.uk/rwf/index.php?section=grants.html

I'd definitely contribute if RU or someone ran a campaign to raise money for the research. I think a whole lot more research is needed into the effects of EC as well.

[Becki xX]

Defiantely needs more research. Its quite possible that EC was part of the reason I lost Jen :cry:, So with reguards to Rhia...I had a tough time deciding whether to give her a 9 day course, a 6 week course, or to do neither unless she showed symptoms of ec. So far I have done the latter...:? X

[abbymarysmokey]

There has been a lot of research done on EC (mainly because humans can catch it). However much of the research has been done on animals other than rabbits (often mice), and the results are usually not free to view on the internet.

Amy

[Sooz]

There has been a lot of research done on EC (mainly because humans can catch it). However much of the research has been done on animals other than rabbits (often mice), and the results are usually not free to view on the internet.

Amy

Would veterinary students be able to access it?

[abbymarysmokey]

Would veterinary students be able to access it?

Some of it no doubt.

Try googling various search terms (E Cuniculi, fenbendazole, etc) and let me know if you find any abstracts that look interesting because I should be able to access them.

[Sooz]

Ok. I will ask my friends at Bristol Vets School to have a look for me too.

[becks]

Then your vet is giving exactly the same advice as mine Jane. Anita also agree's twice yearly or times of high risk are when Panacur are needed. Confusingly this goes against the manufacturers advice for quarterly.

Why will no-one fund more research? :(

this is also my vets view (twice a year with the 9 dose course...tho it feels like much more by teh time i've played chase with sam!!!)

[Jack's-Jane]

Going off at a bit of a tangent here, but about 9 years ago I had a group of 4 Buns, Chloe, Aisling (the 1st), Keira and Charlie. Charlie had what I am now certain was active EC. He was dumped at a local Garden Centre and I took him on. He had very wobbly back legs and bilateral catarracts. Back then I knew nothing about EC and neither did the Vet I used (RSPCA Putney Animal Hospital)
Charlie lived for about 2 years, his hind leg weakness worsened, he developed headtilt and eventually renal failure. Now as I said he lived with 3 Does and all the time he had active EC. But *none* of the Does became ill (Chloe is still here!!) and because I was ignorant of EC back then none of them were Panacured

:?

Janex

[Phill]

Wilbur died from EC last December, Hester died from a uterine tumour, but im sure she was loosing weight because of ec as well, as we had Lavender and Plum tested for ec (the other two in the group) after they had had a 6 day course of panacur paste and both lavender and Plum were carriers, i was assured neither had an active infection, Lavender was pts 2 weeks ago as her ec went active, plum is still with us. My vets have said that they would be willing to bet that 99% of the rabbits i have are carrying ec but that theres not much i can do about it apart from panacur all 17 of them. Im choosing not too as my vets would only give me a 6 day course for all of them and it didn't do Lavender anygood. I definatly agree that more research ios needed!

[abbymarysmokey]

Going off at a bit of a tangent here, but about 9 years ago I had a group of 4 Buns, Chloe, Aisling (the 1st), Keira and Charlie. Charlie had what I am now certain was active EC. He was dumped at a local Garden Centre and I took him on. He had very wobbly back legs and bilateral catarracts. Back then I knew nothing about EC and neither did the Vet I used (RSPCA Putney Animal Hospital)
Charlie lived for about 2 years, his hind leg weakness worsened, he developed headtilt and eventually renal failure. Now as I said he lived with 3 Does and all the time he had active EC. But *none* of the Does became ill (Chloe is still here!!) and because I was ignorant of EC back then none of them were Panacured

:?

Janex

Ditto...I had a rabbit with health problems that *might* have been EC related, and had tested postive for EC. The two 2 does he lived with are still very much alive and kicking 4 or 5 years later. Neither has shown any symptoms of EC as yet. One even has a compromised immune system due to snuffles.

IMHO E. Cuniculi is the latest big scare in a long line...does anyone remember the big commotion about pasteurella a few years back, when keepers of large numbers of rabbits (rescues included) were culling affected rabbits left, right and centre?

I've no doubt that EC infection can be serious, but only time will tell how serious.

Amy

[Sooz]

Going off at a bit of a tangent here, but about 9 years ago I had a group of 4 Buns, Chloe, Aisling (the 1st), Keira and Charlie. Charlie had what I am now certain was active EC. He was dumped at a local Garden Centre and I took him on. He had very wobbly back legs and bilateral catarracts. Back then I knew nothing about EC and neither did the Vet I used (RSPCA Putney Animal Hospital)
Charlie lived for about 2 years, his hind leg weakness worsened, he developed headtilt and eventually renal failure. Now as I said he lived with 3 Does and all the time he had active EC. But *none* of the Does became ill (Chloe is still here!!) and because I was ignorant of EC back then none of them were Panacured

:?

Janex

But we know not all carriers become active. I suspect some rabbits immne systems are better adapted to fighting the infection than others and that provided they can keep it under control they will not develop active symptoms. If Panacur can help keep infection levels to a manageable amount maybe more rabbits will find themselves able to fight off an infection.

[honeybunny]

That's really interesting Jane and agree with the snuffle scares that have happened..

[Jack's-Jane]

Ditto...I had a rabbit with health problems that *might* have been EC related, and had tested postive for EC. The two 2 does he lived with are still very much alive and kicking 4 or 5 years later. Neither has shown any symptoms of EC as yet. One even has a compromised immune system due to snuffles.

IMHO E. Cuniculi is the latest big scare in a long line...does anyone remember the big commotion about pasteurella a few years back, when keepers of large numbers of rabbits (rescues included) were culling affected rabbits left, right and centre?

I've no doubt that EC infection can be serious, but only time will tell how serious.

Amy

Yes, I am not in anyway under-estimating the devastating effects of EC but it is not at all clear yet what the best treatment/preventative protocol is.
Vets all differ in the advice they give ( one I spoke with had never heard of it :shock: :roll:).
I guess we all just do the best we can on the advice of a Vet we can trust.

Janex

[SarahP]

My feeling is that bunnies can keep it relatively in check until some sort of stress brings it out into an active case (in my bunnies it was having them spayed). In this way it would be similar to way small animals are with mites (eg. guinea pigs and mice - you can have one with mites and the others in the cage unaffected). Therefore you could have others living with the bun with the active case, that are keeping their levels under control and don't get active cases themselves.

[Jack's-Jane]

My feeling is that bunnies can keep it relatively in check until some sort of stress brings it out into an active case (in my bunnies it was having them spayed). In this way it would be similar to way small animals are with mites (eg. guinea pigs and mice - you can have one with mites and the others in the cage unaffected). Therefore you could have others living with the bun with the active case, that are keeping their levels under control and don't get active cases themselves.

I agree up to a point but the three Does living with Charlie all had health issues that would make them quite vulnerable :?
Its all so confusing :? :?

Janex

[halon]

Try googling various search terms (E Cuniculi, fenbendazole, etc) and let me know if you find any abstracts that look interesting because I should be able to access them.[/QUOTE]

Here's one of the studies I've been looking at if you're interested (that is accessible to everyone)

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/cgi/reprint/148/15/478?ck=nck

This is probably all out of date so maybe you can update us :D

But as I was trying to say earlier before i rushed off to work, the impression I get from vets, and people talking about the research, is that there's still not consensus about effective duration for treatment. And it's still very difficult to work out what is caused by EC and what's due to other problems.

And i think one of the problems with the research is that, as has been said not enough is rabbit specific. But some sources of funding for rabbit specific research (e.g. welfare organisations) are going to be concerned (and rightly so) about the welfare of test subjects so it must be quite difficult to design research.

sorry for the ramblings on - by the time i finish writing anything, half a dozen other people always seem to have got in first and said way more helpful things

[abbymarysmokey]

Thanks for posting that study halon, it was a really interesting read :D

If I'm interpreting it correctly...a 9 day course of fenbendazole (given 7 days before infection and 2 days after) appears to be effective in preventing EC entering the nervous system for a period of at least 18 weeks.

Also it seems as though a 9 day course is as good at preventing infection as a 21 day course.

Amy

[raine]

I havent used Panacur on my bunnies. I think if I bought a new bunny into the house, I would probably do the same as Jane and treat the new bunny.

[lucycat]

I had a rabbit die from EC well I had him PTS as he wasnt improving and had a horrible quality of life.

He lived with Silky my other rabbit and I didnt know enough about EC to spot his symptoms when they started. In fact I had spotted some and mentioned them to the vet who thought it was nothing!! Not enough vets know enough as I said EC after looking up symptoms and posting on here!

He never really responded to treatment and the damage was done. I believe retrospectively he had symptoms for several months before I realised the severity.

The vets recommended I treated my other rabbit Silky with a full course of panacur.

He also recommended I treated for 9 days 3-4 times a year but said this was thought to be a good preventative and research was showing it worked but that too little was known about the disease.

I had my female rabbit tested for EC about 5 months ago and 3 months after his death as I was worried she was drinking too much. She tested negative for antibodies despite living with an EC bunny for months and definately being exposed.

Its a horrible disease to see a much loved bunny suffer from. I treat mine every 4-5 months which gives three times a year, even if it doesnt work I think its better to try.