Vets - what do you say when they want to do something you disagree with!?

Harry and Poppy are now very loved up but it took alot to get them to that stage! Harry wasn't interested in his pellets when I went out there this afternoon so I took him to the vets. Now I have a rabbit savvy vet nearby but their opening hours are very limited, so in these sort of circumstances I normally go to a local vet that I've used for years with various animals.
They saved Jack when he was very poorly with stasis so I do have some confidence in them. They give painkillers, baytril and a gut stimulant.

But they also tell me every time to syringe pineapple juice, I spoke to Jacks Jane when Jack was ill and she didn't recommend it. They wanted me to do it this time too and in fact stressed that it was very important :?
I haven't done it and have just used the science recovery they gave me.

He also wanted me to split Harry and Poppy up so I could keep an eye on if he poo'd. I told him I wasn't willing to do that and why and he said as long as I can tell if Harry's been pooing then he doesn't mind.

The thing is I've got a follow up appointment at 10.20am, and he mentioned if things were still bad enough they might want to take him in for the day. So how on earth would I tell him I don't want Harry to have pineapple juice and that the pair of them HAVE to stay together??? :?
Even if it doesn't come to it tomorrow I'd love some suggestions for future use.

I always feel like a little girl in front of the headmistress or something when I'm at the vets, which doesn't help

pinapple juice is somtimes used to help break up compacted matter in the gut so though it may help if there is a hairball i don't think it would help in stasis unless a hairball was the cause.
i understand the vets recomendation to seperate the rabbits. my rex Enya has reoccuring stasis when she develops it i seperate her from her two partners in a large dog crate in the same room. this way at least they can see and smell each other but i know what she is passing and the amount she has eaten/drunk. i havn't had any problems when she is reintroduced to them.

"So how on earth would I tell him I don't want Harry to have pineapple juice and that the pair of them HAVE to stay together??? "

..ask what the pinapple juice is for. if your not happy with the vets answer simply state you would rather your rabbit did not have it.

Tricky one. My very rabbit savvy vet goes to loads of seminars to keep upto date as well are the RWA conference. The latest info on pineapple juice is not to use it for this as the sugar content in it feeds the bad bacteria in the gut and causes it to multiply.....

I don't know how you would put that across without sounding like a know-it-all though

This is an extract from an article about GI stasis by Dana Krempels, a Rabbit 'Expert'

D. Enzymatic digestive aids

can be helpful in loosening and softening an impacted mass of food and hair (which, we remind you, is usually a symptom, not the cause of the problem!). Proteolytic (protein-dissolving) enzymes may be of either plant or animal origin. Papain (found in papaya) and bromelain (found in pineapple) may help to break down mucus binding an obstruction, thus allowing it to slowly break up and pass. However, there is no evidence to suggest that these enzymes break down keratin, which is the main protein component of hair. Both papain and bromelain are available in powdered form at most health food stores, and should be reconstituted in water or Pedialyte shortly before use to ensure maximum potency. Papaya tablets are little more than a sugary treat: they contain very little active enzyme. Canned pineapple juice is useless, as it has been cooked, and its enzymes denatured and inactivated. Even fresh pineapple juice is not as desirable as powdered bromelain, since it is high in sugar, which is just about the last thing you want to add to a compromised rabbit's intestine!
If a hair/food mass proves particularly stubborn, even after rehydration efforts and plant enzymes have been tried, your vet may wish to try a more powerful, animal-derived enzyme product such as Viokase, which contains pancreatic enzymes to break down proteins, amylases to break down indigestible carbohydrates and lipases to break down fats. Although these enzymes may be better than bromelain or papain at breaking down an obstruction composed of ingested matter, they should be used with great caution, as they can burn the esophagus and cause temporary (two or three days) discomfort in an already sick bunny. If Viokase is to be used, it may help to administer just enough pediatric simethicone or laxative grade mineral oil to coat the esophagus for a moment just before the enzyme solution is given

The full article can be seen here

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

Maybe print it off to show your Vet

Janex

tigerbabe said:

So how on earth would I tell him I don't want Harry to have pineapple juice and that the pair of them HAVE to stay together??? :?
Even if it doesn't come to it tomorrow I'd love some suggestions for future use.

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To be honest if he is bad enough that they want him to stay in then seperating him from his partner is not necessarily a bad thing. Like maxxev said knowing exactly what is going in and out of your rabbit is very important in finding out what is going on and in helping treat him. I had a group of 4 rabbits and Lenny developed breathing problems and had to be rushed to the emergency vets, where it was discovered he'd over stuffed himself as he'd managed to get into the feed shed when my husband was in there :roll:, he was kept in over night to be monitored and came home about 16hours later and went back in with the others just fine.

If one of my two are poorly, I will separate them so I can monitor their eating/movements. I will normally bring the well one in for half an hour or so every so often.

I find that the well one tends to "hassle" the poorly one too much, so to give the poorly one peace it does help to separate them.

I had to do it this week when Homer was under the weather after steroid injection. Katy was jumping all over him and trashing the kitchen :roll:- she was escorted back to the shed at midnight to give him the peace that he needed. She was brought back in first thing in the morning and after about 5 mins she was licking his head.

I tend to use the pineapple juice mixed with water to tempt them to take more fluids (4.5ml water/0.5ml pineapple) as Jane mentined it is full of glucose so not too much.

All a rabbit needs when they're temporarily off their food is water, water and more water, preferably warmed from the kettle, and made tasty with a splash of fruit juice, as you need to syringe it into them, and they aren't too happy about that unless it tastes nice.

I have had to seperate Zinniea from her sisters twice now for the above treatment, and always worry about putting her back in after a few hours, but it seems to be fine if I am carrying a plate of pellets for her sisters at the same time - they don't notice her slip in.

The problem with taking a rabbit to the vets away from their partner is they will smell very different when they return - so if you need to do this it's best to take their partner in a carrier to collect them, and reintroduce them in the car so they have a chance to snuggle before getting home, and then put them somewhere more neutral than their accomodation, just to be sure their partner is still happy with them.

Really if you give plenty of water though, average gut stasis should resolve itself without a trip to the vets, which can make matters worse in my opinion - imagine if there's a big wad of food and hair slowing down the guts, coming to a narrowing point in the intestines - what happens when you give a gut stimulant and force feeding on top of that? Whereas if you give water, it will soak in (with the help of fresh pineapple enzyme - but only fresh pineapple has live enzyme) and the wad will slowly pass through the kinks in the intestines without causing a rupture or bloat. Not to mention the stress of a vet visit.

I give about 10ml water every hour and encourage them to run about a bit - usually there's a violent gurgle from their tummy and they are then fine.

The thing is I have been able to moniter exactly how much he's eaten, had to drink and poo'd without spliting them up.
It took 3 weeks of them being in an indoor cage in my bedroom to get them bonded and at the start I really did think Harry would have to go back to the rescue, so I am incredibly wary of splitting them.

Harry did a few soft poo's last night and some very small hard ones before I finally went to bed at 3am. But only a couple of small hard ones since then and he's still not interested in food. But he is eating small amounts of hay on his own. Do I need to syringe feed him still?

I would carry on syringing water even if he's eating, as he still doesn't sound right - 10ml every hour, with a splash of hot from the kettle, and a tiny drop of ribena or fruit juice to make it taste nice. If he's not improved by this evening I'd take him back to the vets as he might be in pain.

We've been back to the vets, and apparently the impaction feels slightly bigger today
The fact that he's poo'd a little and is eating some hay is obviously a good thing and the vet seemed to think the fact that Harry was really lively was good too.
He's had another 3 injections (2 of which I did :shock: ) and he's got another 2 that I've got to give him tonight. And the vet wants me to continue syringe feeding him the science recovery and go back in the morning, at which point if things haven't improved they'll keep him in and put him on a drip

I separate my 2 when one of them is in stasis - I have a pen where one is on one side of it and one on the other, with a litter tray. It is really important to know whether the sick bunny is pooing (otherwise you just don't know if the bunny is improving, plus you can leave food there that the well bunny won't gobble up!), and they still get to groom each other through the bars.

I have never seperated a pair of rabbit when one is in stasis, then again I have never had one admitted either.

I do worry about the additional stress seperating a bonded pair during illness can cause.

I have also found the healthy member of the pair to be very intuitive to the sick rabbit and to adjuct their behaviour accordingly.

I will emphasise however I have been constantly available to monitor eating/drinking/defecating habits and I can tell my bunnies poops apart too

I am not hugely convinced pineapple works, certainly not juice, possibly freshly cut fruit. The idea is the bromelaine breaks down the mucus which binds the hair together BUT there is no definitive proof this is the case and it is far better to keep the gut hydrated, the mass malleable and the stomach free of digestive upsetting sugar.

Sooz22 said:

I have also found the healthy member of the pair to be very intuitive to the sick rabbit and to adjuct their behaviour accordingly.

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Poppy has been bahaving very nicely with him, she grooms him now and then and lays with him. A few times when she's been laying on her own Harry has sought her out to lay next to her.

Sooz22 said:

I will emphasise however I have been constantly available to monitor eating/drinking/defecating habits and I can tell my bunnies poops apart too

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That's it, I have been too. And I've been following Poppy round the cage picking up her poo's so I can easily spot new ones, and I can tell who's done which poo's because I'm sitting next to the cage on permanent rabbit watch.

Sooz22 said:

I am not hugely convinced pineapple works, certainly not juice, possibly freshly cut fruit. The idea is the bromelaine breaks down the mucus which binds the hair together BUT there is no definitive proof this is the case and it is far better to keep the gut hydrated, the mass malleable and the stomach free of digestive upsetting sugar.

Click to expand...

I've bought a fresh pineapple today and made my own juice in the blender... just pineapple and water.

First of all, Hello everyone! This is my first ever posting (on any forum!) (I know - this internet thing hasn't been around long!).
I have joined under quite sad circumstances unfortunately. I lost my first precious rabbit a couple of days ago, he was only a year old. I always thought I'd have many, many happy years with him, but sadly that was not to be.
May wait a little while (if I can ) until I home another rabbit, so until then I'd like to stay informed and hear what you lot got to say in the meantime.
Anyway, on the subject of vets and separating rabbit friends - wow, I had no idea there would be problems reuniting friends after a period of separation.
Having worked in a veterinary surgery for a few years I am very aware that pets seem to do better when taken home by their owners to their usual, familiar, comfortable home (unless of course they are attached to a drip etc), but many surgeries completely close down at say 7pm so your pet doesn't even get a glance until 8 o'clock the next morning. And plus, no one, vet nurse or otherwise is going to give your pet the attention it deserves other than yourself who has a genuine reason for its welfare.
Of course, vets know their stuff, and I'm sure there are a great many good surgeries out there - this is just my personal experience. Don't forget though to trust your own judgement too xxx