PAH adoption

[Lspacehopper]

I find certain parts of that worrying, but she seems to have been honest about the things they won't do such as vaccines. I hope the neutering vouchers will spead and they eventually start neutering before they leave store. Only problem I can forsee there is that many Companion Care vets in stores closed due to lack of business, therefore some may not have them locally to get the neuter done.

My argument with the companion care vets is as you say they aren't in every PAH and as far as my store is concerned the nearest is over an hours drive away. Kind of defeats the object in my opinion. Personally, if I had my way, we'd be having them neutered before they go and charging a set donation as rescues do.

It frustrates the heck out of me.

[losing-the-plot]

Arh I see, you could try the dust free hay, I dont have the link to hand as I dont use them but I am sure some-one else would have it if you feel like passing it on to the owner. Mine have had it in the past as Luvabun got me some and mine did love it and alot of members use them too:D

Yep, would like to know which echinachea as I do use it on occassions:D

Wispa - thanks for letting me know that you have seen different frenchies and not just the agouti frenchies:D From what members have posted and from what I have seen, so far I have only seen the agouti's when p@h first started to get them in. I have not been in a store since so not sure if they are changing but, going back to losing the plot (which I think we all lost along time ago:lol::lol:) are you sure that you have giants? as my local p@h they were listed as a giant but was in fact a frenchie, and Tracy at Rugby also had to giggle at the giant in her store which again, was a frenchie listed as a giant :lol::lol:

Having said this though, my first rabbit from p@h was listed as being a dwarf rabbit. Now I have seen a variety of breeds in the fur, I now realise he was a mini lop so if the breeders who supply p@h dont know what they are breeding, what chance do customers have of getting what they say they are:lol::lol::lol:

I agree though, agouti's are gorgeous even though I dont have one:D

If your interested though, you could always start a poll and we as members could go into our nearest stores and report back what store and whether it is a frenchie or a giant and what colour;)


Hey again,

We tried Flump with dust free hay which I got from somewhere on the net, cant remember where, but he refused to touch it, it was a case of that or damp hay and at the end of the day our main concern was getting enough hay into him.

I see everyone beat me to the other name for echinachea, but yep coneflower is the stuff from the Naturals range, ( I also noticed someone was curious as to who supplys the naturals range, its from Rosewood here - http://www.rosewoodpet.com/products/range_43.asp?id=43&sgid=356)

You can also get dried echinachea from Dodson and Horrell in dried and liquid form - http://www.dodsonandhorrell.com/uk/dh/horse/herbal/echinacea

Yes we have definately had giants, we have never had a french lop but we have had 3 continental giants. 2 live in sheds and one is a house rabbit, we get regular updates and photos from their new owners. The lady who bought our first giant Jackson brought us in a photo of him she had made into a mousemat for us, he has pride of place in our office!!

[losing-the-plot]

My argument with the companion care vets is as you say they aren't in every PAH and as far as my store is concerned the nearest is over an hours drive away. Kind of defeats the object in my opinion. Personally, if I had my way, we'd be having them neutered before they go and charging a set donation as rescues do.

It frustrates the heck out of me.

We have the same problem. Our nearest CC is 20 minutes away from us. We haven't got the space for one in our store unfortunately as were only in a smallish unit. We used to be a nice big one but had to swap with Next several years ago :roll:

[Sooz]

To answer your question about the rabbits and GPs co-habiting Laura, they did seperate them last summer yet in December they were back together again. The main animal pens held a set of four rabbits and a trio and some GPs, co-habiting in mixed species groups.

On the side in a glass enclosure just under the small rodent section were two young rabbits (approx. 8-10 weeks) and a two GPs living together.

[Lucy]

So they tell the public not to house them together (I hope and assume anyway) and then set an example by... housing them together. Great. leading by examples the way to go p@h.

[Denny]

Can you speak to her again Jane and ask her some more questions to the points listed below:)


4 Unsold P@H 'stock' can be put into the adoption centre, but this has to be clearly stated on the animals adoption details

Q: How long does the animal stay on the shop floor before it is deemed an adoption case? Is this a possible get out clause enabling the store to restock instead of having 1 bunny left in an enclosure until sold?

5 'Deformed' animals from P@H the retailer's specific Breeders can be homed via the Adoption Centre- eg a three legged Bunny or a Guinea Pig with one eye

Q: Do the breeders have alot of cases like the above? and do p@h not think that such animals would need a specialised home?

She also told me that P@H use 5 Rabbit Breeders in total. She said she has visited 2 of the establishments and that they are 'definately not Rabbit Mills' and are probably cleaner than most of our NHS Hospitals'.................

Q: When will she be visiting the other 3 breeders to establish whether they are clean and reputable, 2 out of 5 doesn't really say alot really:lol::lol: How does she know the other 3 are not only churning rabbits out for other pet shops and the meat trade too:?

Also, if there are 5 breeders to fuel 210 stores, how can they be anything other than rabbit mills:? Most stores have a variety of breeds for sale which are obviously from different rabbits when put out on the shop floor so is she saying that the 5 breeders specialise in a certain breed that get shipped to each store?

Finally, How much travelling do the rabbits actually do to reach the store and are they allowed a decent time to settle before being sold and travelling again?

Regarding the rest of the comments it is a step and only time will tell if it is a step in the right direction regarding the adoption scheme:)

The biggest concern to me is the 5 breeders to 210 stores and why a breeder would be producing deformed animals:(

Thanks Losing the plot, I will check the health stores out for the echa-nacky-noobie;):D

[honeybunny]

I posted that I wasin discussion with my local PAH regarding partnering with them..which I know some of you consider to be siding with the devil...but
I had said " if " I partnered with them I wanted all the buns surrendered in to become Honeybunnies..we neuter and vacs them all, and HOMECHECK..and..as a side, they were not to be kept on woodshavings..as the buns in store are now.

but I've had a reply which basically says no...this is the reply that was passed to me..hope it's ok to post it here but i cannot see why not

"Unfortunately, we couldn’t take in the ladies rabbits as all the pets in our adoption centre are owned by the Charitable Foundation and not Pets At Home and the upkeep of them is paid for by Pets at Home and it could get quite difficult to manage.

As she is carrying out extra costs incurred with the rabbits such as neutering etc, she can ask for a minimum donation. Unfortunately, we cannot charge a minimum but we are soon going to be sending out a “suggested donation” price list and hopefully that should help to eliminate people donating low amounts for pets.

We are also looking at trialling neutering vouchers and if this is successful then we would roll it out to all stores.

When that is all finalised later in the year, maybe the lady will reconsider partnering with us."

As I explained to the manager, who has been helpful, I really cannot see what benefit it is to a rescue to be partnered with them....all they will do is have a poster up detailing us and if someone wishes to adopt a bun and the do not have a suitable one there, they will pass on our number.
Well they can do that anyway.
If they stop buying in stock..and all the other improvements are made..then maybe a link could be established...but at present I'm not sure.

[Sooz]

So are they saying if someone offered them £1 for one of the adoption rabbits they would not be allowed to turn them down for that?

I know Heeley have accepted donations of £3 and £5 before...

[honeybunny]

As Donna has already said ..our local store said..very recently..she could give £1 for a bun.....

[Doncat5]

So are they saying if someone offered them £1 for one of the adoption rabbits they would not be allowed to turn them down for that?

I know Heeley have accepted donations of £3 and £5 before...

On one occasion I was told £1 would be fine, and on another occasion that I could give whatever I wanted (by 2 different people), and there was no minimum donation......Laura contacted me regarding this, and although she says this isnt the case now, from the looks of Jills reply theyre unable to set a minimum donation.

[Jack's-Jane]

Can you speak to her again Jane and ask her some more questions to the points listed below:)



Q: How long does the animal stay on the shop floor before it is deemed an adoption case? Is this a possible get out clause enabling the store to restock instead of having 1 bunny left in an enclosure until sold?



Q: Do the breeders have alot of cases like the above? and do p@h not think that such animals would need a specialised home?



Q: When will she be visiting the other 3 breeders to establish whether they are clean and reputable, 2 out of 5 doesn't really say alot really:lol::lol: How does she know the other 3 are not only churning rabbits out for other pet shops and the meat trade too:?

Also, if there are 5 breeders to fuel 210 stores, how can they be anything other than rabbit mills:? Most stores have a variety of breeds for sale which are obviously from different rabbits when put out on the shop floor so is she saying that the 5 breeders specialise in a certain breed that get shipped to each store?

Finally, How much travelling do the rabbits actually do to reach the store and are they allowed a decent time to settle before being sold and travelling again?

Regarding the rest of the comments it is a step and only time will tell if it is a step in the right direction regarding the adoption scheme:)

The biggest concern to me is the 5 breeders to 210 stores and why a breeder would be producing deformed animals:(

Thanks Losing the plot, I will check the health stores out for the echa-nacky-noobie;):D

I will email your questions to the Adoption Co-ordinator :)

Janex

[davies67]

http://www.mybunnyblog.com/fudge-and-thumper/

oh dear

[alexandrahickey]

So they tell the public not to house them together (I hope and assume anyway) and then set an example by... housing them together. Great. leading by examples the way to go p@h.

http://www.mybunnyblog.com/fudge-and-thumper/ :shock:

You were saying??

[Jocelyn]

http://www.mybunnyblog.com/fudge-and-thumper/ :shock:

You were saying??

I've made a complaint to Brighton about this, as well as HO. Thus far I have received no reply :(

[Jocelyn]

So are they saying if someone offered them £1 for one of the adoption rabbits they would not be allowed to turn them down for that?

I know Heeley have accepted donations of £3 and £5 before...

The one near me told me I could have one of the adoption rats for free :shock: [I took her home :?]

[Lucy]

http://www.mybunnyblog.com/fudge-and-thumper/ :shock:

You were saying??

Maybe rather than being sarcastic you could write a meaningful post, then I may reply.

[cute_fuzzies]

Before this degenerates, probably best to keep all posts regarding the RSPCA's rehoming policies on this thread: http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=113975

Well done Jane, I think it's great that you have got into communication to find out the facts from the source - I think sometimes we can all speculate a bit too much which doesn't do anybody any good, no matter what side of the argument you stand on.

[matty]

the reason why they cant ask for a minimum donation is because it is a donation to a charity just imagine dropping some change in a charity box somewhere and the person holding it says im sorry but theres a minimum donation of 1 pound unless you give me this amount i wont let you donate money to a good cause. dont shout at me because i understand the differences but hopefully you can understand the position P@H will be in. i think the suggested donation should work as a happy medium.

[Ben's mum]

the reason why they cant ask for a minimum donation is because it is a donation to a charity just imagine dropping some change in a charity box somewhere and the person holding it says im sorry but theres a minimum donation of 1 pound unless you give me this amount i wont let you donate money to a good cause. dont shout at me because i understand the differences but hopefully you can understand the position P@H will be in. i think the suggested donation should work as a happy medium.

Yeah, I think there was something on here before about you not being allowed to specify a minimum donation as it counts as selling rather than adopting out, but I'm not sure how that'd work with places like Battersea Dogs home etc having minimum donation fees :?

[Sooz]

Maybe its because with rescues you are 'getting' something for your donation, e.g. neutering, vaccinations and worming so your paying for the treatments rather than the rabbits but with P@H you would in essence be buying the rabbit....which then means that rabbit would fall under the same regulations r.e. health as 'stock'.

[Jack's-Jane]

They cannot ask for a minimum donation as they are a charity but *they can refuse to adopt out* if someone only offers to donate a stupid amount, say £1, on the basis that they may not be able to afford to care for the Pet if they cant afford a more 'reasonable' donation

All staff working in the adoption centres are *supposed* to have undergone a specific training course (they get a badge to wear if they pass!! :lol:) and this includes training about how to refuse an adoption, when and why.

Denny, I am still waiting for HO to get back to me re the Adoption Co-ordinators email addie. H/O are not usually allowed to give email addies out but the adoption co-ordintaor asked me to keep in regular contact with her and I dont see why I should have to keep phoning when an email is much more convenient. Anyways, HO are asking the adoption person if she is OK about me having her email addie !!

Please no-one think I condone *any* of what P@H are doing, I am just trying to find out *the facts*

Janex

[Lucy]

Jane, I think thats the problem. There seems to be a large difference between what they are supposed to know and do and what they actually know and do.

[rspcarabbits]

Accepting £1 or even £3 for a rabbit at a pet shop which has not been vaccinated is cheaper than getting one at a butchers. Pick a big one and it works out pretty good value pound for £.

If its just about being able to ask for a larger donation only if you neuter of in this case vaccinate isnt this a bit of a no brainer. Hvd vaccine in the form of lapinject only costs approx £1.30 and Myxo approx £5 for the actual vaccine which would then allow for a much bigger donation and then at least a resonable value can be put on an animals life.

But isn't this the point....... its all about animals lives were taking about here and sometimes this can be lost in the discussion and debate.

The facts are pet shops and most breeders do not vaccinate or neuter because the end product becomes too expensive for the casual purchaser .
Big pet shops could have all this done at a far reduced price than Mr jo public and so at the end of the day still appear excellent value if the costs of external essential veterinary treatment were highlighted.They could send out a shining example to all the livestock world on this one.

I will be the first to admit things are changing in some sort of direction in the pet shop world perhaps for the better who knows, however at the present time I have seen or read little in these pages that will convince me that in their eye's an animals life has any real value or that they give a damm what happens to them after they are sold. There are things they could implement right now without the need for charitable funds or setting up charities or whatever. But they do not and I'm affraid the devil appears to be in the detail.

I'm sorry if this offends some clearly dedicated staff who try their best, its not personal buts its animals lives were talking about here.

[Leanne]

I was told by the staff at my local one that I could adopt for 50p.

[babybunnies3]

As she is carrying out extra costs incurred with the rabbits such as neutering etc, she can ask for a minimum donation. Unfortunately, we cannot charge a minimum but we are soon going to be sending out a “suggested donation” price list and hopefully that should help to eliminate people donating low amounts for pets.

Honeybunny, If what you are trying to do is help animals then nobody should slate you for that. Sometimes people who judge should look at themselves and ask "well what am I doing to help?"

I was in P@H last weekend, saw a two year old dwarf lop in their adoption centre and asked about her, I was told the only information they had was what was on the adoption form, which the girl went and fetched.
There was nothing helpful on there.
It doesn't ask if the animal has been vacc, spayed or about basic health.
Or if it does those bits hadn't been filled in.
It said she shouldn't be kept with other rabbits, but not why.
It didn't even say if she had been living inside or out.
Basically they could tell me nothing.
We had a cuddle and she was a lovely girl but I didn't have her as eventually she would have had to be bonded with Dusty and Meggie and as I don't have room for 3 hutches I wouldn't want to have to rehome her again if the bonding didn't work.
I was told the minimum I could give was half the price of a "normal" rabbit for sale there and the maximum the full amount for a rabbit there so £13-£26.
Which reading the previous posts is wrong :?

[Jack's-Jane]

If Tamsin agrees it may be useful for the Adoption Co-ordinator to be emailed a link to this thread. Obviously the co-ordinator cant be in all branches of P@H at the same time to insure things are done correctly.
Having access to this thread may be a useful tool to keep her updated on the the situation Nationwide.

I am a bit busy today ( arrival of a poorly Bun etc) but I will PM Tamsin later and will continue to pester P@H HO

Janex

[Denny]

Thanks for the update Jane:)

Could some-one explain to me why a minimum set donation is not allowed if they are of charity status? There are quite a few rescues that are a registered charity and many of those have a minimum set donation charge so I am well confused:lol::lol::lol:

[Lucy]

I have a feeling it's to do with the law, if it's a donation you can only suggest a minimum amount, where in practice that doesn't seem to happen. A minimum is seen as a minimum. Maybe they have to be extra careful about people who may report them for things like that?

[Leanne]

I personally wouldn't offer P@H more than a pound for any animal as to me, with the current scheme, I don't want to give them money. They are a massive company with a large turnover and can more than afford to give a grant from their company to their charitable foundation to fund the upkeep and vet fees of the rehome animals. If they were to vaccinate and neuter animals (that can be vacc and/or neutered) prior to rehoming I would happily pay a decent donation fee if I wanted to adopt from them. They really are not promoting adoption well at all. No home checks, only essential vet treatment, rehoming to anyone for any amount...blah blah blah. I really hope that the adoption manager listens to everyone and restructures the scheme to match the adoption criteria that any decent rescue centre uses.

[Denny]

If they were to vaccinate and neuter animals (that can be vacc and/or neutered) prior to rehoming I would happily pay a decent donation fee if I wanted to adopt from them. They really are not promoting adoption well at all. No home checks, only essential vet treatment, rehoming to anyone for any amount...blah blah blah. I really hope that the adoption manager listens to everyone and restructures the scheme to match the adoption criteria that any decent rescue centre uses.

I used to think that about rescues Leanne, that all rescue's should vaccinate, neuter etc etc to be a decent rescue but I have changed my stance on that now due to the fact that many are unable to afford these things as veternary treatment prioritises their funds. Those who decided to become a rescue did so to help the unwanted, not for their own beneficial gain. Whether they choose to not vaccinate or spay or homecheck, who am I to judge a task that I could not do myself by starting a rescue:( Where would the animals be for those that have ended up in the rescue that is deemed less decent to those who are fortunate to get funding from the public or internet;)

Another factor to adoption fee's is that, many parts of the country have higher living expense's resulting in higher living costs, as are the other end of the scale to these costs where things go cheap. A few years ago, a few rescues I spoke with explained to me why their donation cost was so low despite being vaccinated and neutered. In their area they could go and buy a rabbit for £5.00 so no-one would even consider paying £40 to recover some of the animals costs from a rescue when you could go and buy one for a fiver. They had to at least get them into the rescue before they were deemed un-suitable owners hence their donation being so low. Now I was shocked at such a low donation fee but did understand where the woman was coming from with this;)

I do agree that p@h could afford to vaccinate and neuter rabbits prior to purchase/adoption but at what cost to the rabbit. Most rescue's have a set mininum donation fee of around the same amount (which is less than the neuter or vaccinations have cost), if p@h charged the same minimum donation fee to compete with rescues they would be out of pocket like the rescues are, if they charge higher to cover these costs then people would think it was cheaper to go to a rescue;)

Before you know it we will have buncompare.com:lol::lol:

[honeybunny]

"Before you know it we will have buncompare.com"

Love it!:lol:

My main question is PAH are asking rescues to link up with them..but what exactly do they mean by "link up"?
as from the reply I received their own "charitable foundation" wants to control all the adoptions and income from these, in their stores..so as i said before ,do they mean we'll display a poster for you..and if so how is that linking up???

I do agree this all seems to be going in the right direction but lets hope they also help to support the smaller rescues that have been clearing up the problems caused by pet shops sales for years..not just "link-up" with the larger concerns that can perhaps help their advertising??? (yep I'm a cynic!:lol:)

If they stop buying in stock..and neuter all adoptive animals ..then great.....

[Leanne]

I used to think that about rescues Leanne, that all rescue's should vaccinate, neuter etc etc to be a decent rescue but I have changed my stance on that now due to the fact that many are unable to afford these things as veternary treatment prioritises their funds. Those who decided to become a rescue did so to help the unwanted, not for their own beneficial gain. Whether they choose to not vaccinate or spay or homecheck, who am I to judge a task that I could not do myself by starting a rescue:( Where would the animals be for those that have ended up in the rescue that is deemed less decent to those who are fortunate to get funding from the public or internet;)

Another factor to adoption fee's is that, many parts of the country have higher living expense's resulting in higher living costs, as are the other end of the scale to these costs where things go cheap. A few years ago, a few rescues I spoke with explained to me why their donation cost was so low despite being vaccinated and neutered. In their area they could go and buy a rabbit for £5.00 so no-one would even consider paying £40 to recover some of the animals costs from a rescue when you could go and buy one for a fiver. They had to at least get them into the rescue before they were deemed un-suitable owners hence their donation being so low. Now I was shocked at such a low donation fee but did understand where the woman was coming from with this;)

I do agree that p@h could afford to vaccinate and neuter rabbits prior to purchase/adoption but at what cost to the rabbit. Most rescue's have a set mininum donation fee of around the same amount (which is less than the neuter or vaccinations have cost), if p@h charged the same minimum donation fee to compete with rescues they would be out of pocket like the rescues are, if they charge higher to cover these costs then people would think it was cheaper to go to a rescue;)

Before you know it we will have buncompare.com:lol::lol:

When I say decent I mean the intent is there ;)
I understand smaller rescues not being able to afford to do this but most decent rescues will have a clause on the adoption form that the new owner will get these done within a set time and proof is to be forwarded to the rescue.
My adoption form did and I always rang the surgery the owner used to confirm that it was done. In the 14 years I rehomed animals I rarely had to chase someone up to get things done. Maybe thats because im a nagging cow though and anyone who has doubts about being able to afford the upkeep soon runs a mile after I tell them all the negatives :oops: :lol:
Any large rescue CAN vaccinate and neuter.
Im lucky in that I can run up bills and pay off little and often and I know some rescues don't have that luxury.
I have always asked for donations based on what has been done and what vets fees I have running at the time, luckily in London people seem to pay the price happilyu but I totally understand that alot of people aren't willing to pay more than the petshop price of a rabbit but then, I wouldn't rehome to that person anyway! But again, I know other rescues/rehomers can't be so fussy!
P@H don't even show intent when it comes to neutering and vaccinating adoption rabbits in many branches it would seem, mine included.
There is limited info on the animals brought in to.
My relinquishing form was very thorough and im just a bog standard private individual that rescued and rehomed so a multi national company should be able to do it :?
This is why I think they should not be rehoming themselves and should just join up with local rescues instead where the knowledge and compassion is. :D

[Leanne]

Before you know it we will have buncompare.com:lol::lol:

You are scaring me now :shock: :lol:

[Leanne]

"Before you know it we will have buncompare.com"

Love it!:lol:

My main question is PAH are asking rescues to link up with them..but what exactly do they mean by "link up"?
as from the reply I received their own "charitable foundation" wants to control all the adoptions and income from these, in their stores..so as i said before ,do they mean we'll display a poster for you..and if so how is that linking up???

I do agree this all seems to be going in the right direction but lets hope they also help to support the smaller rescues that have been clearing up the problems caused by pet shops sales for years..not just "link-up" with the larger concerns that can perhaps help their advertising??? (yep I'm a cynic!:lol:)

If they stop buying in stock..and neuter all adoptive animals ..then great.....

We can but dream Jill.....!

To me, its just a mitigation measure designed to win over the proportion of their customers that have decided to shop elsewhere down to their inability to sex and advise on animal welfare properly and their continuation of livestock sales.
Very clever, very cunning move.

[Denny]

In the 14 years I rehomed animals

I didn't realise you were a rescue Leanne:oops::D How embarrassing, I thought judging from your pictures that you were early 20's:oops:

P@H don't even show intent when it comes to neutering and vaccinating adoption rabbits in many branches it would seem, mine included.


But at the moment, the scheme has not long been going to establish what their intentions are or which direction they are heading, and as mentioned by the adoption co-ordinator, they will be seeing how the neutering vouchers go in selected stores before making a decision as to whether they neuter. Maybe they will neuter if the vouchers are not being used but if they are being used then maybe they will stick to the vouchers like the CPL offer and in some cases, the RSPCA offer too:)

Dont get me wrong, I dont like pet shops sales as much as the next person adn admit, there is alot of ironing out of issues that they need to consentrate on with regards the adoption scheme which hopefully this site can do by putting suggestions to them:)

Before you know it we will have buncompare.comYou are scaring me now

Can I change that to comparebuns.com:lol::lol:

[Leanne]

I didn't realise you were a rescue Leanne:oops::D How embarrassing, I thought judging from your pictures that you were early 20's:oops:


Oh no im not now, I had to stop when I went back to uni (money and time)plus I was only small scale I would take in ones being pts by other rescue centres or ones bought into work to be pts and the kennels/vets I worked for (still locum at) are very pro rescue/rehome and myself and my manager coordinated all the rehomes from chickens to dogs to fish :D
I still take desperate animals in now but only one batch at a time!

Thanks for the compliment! Im 32! :( :lol:

[Leanne]

But at the moment, the scheme has not long been going to establish what their intentions are or which direction they are heading, and as mentioned by the adoption co-ordinator, they will be seeing how the neutering vouchers go in selected stores before making a decision as to whether they neuter. Maybe they will neuter if the vouchers are not being used but if they are being used then maybe they will stick to the vouchers like the CPL offer and in some cases, the RSPCA offer too:)

Dont get me wrong, I dont like pet shops sales as much as the next person adn admit, there is alot of ironing out of issues that they need to consentrate on with regards the adoption scheme which hopefully this site can do by putting suggestions to them:)



I know you don't :D

Thats what bothers me though, they seem to have rushed into it to just win the public over and not actually thoroughly researched and set acceptable criteria, it has started as very half hearted and I think its only the pressure from the public that has made them review the scheme, which of course is a good thing! I do think the voucher scheme is a good idea but keeping to just companion care I can see causing problems as many branches don't have a surgery. I guess its because they have agreed a discounted neuter. Its good that they seem to be making changes already but still no homecheck and basically it is currently no different from selling one of the shop buns. Same advice, same lack of vetting owners, same lack of compassion. :(

I really hope they do listen and make changes across the board :D

and no you can't change the name :p

[Denny]

My main question is PAH are asking rescues to link up with them..but what exactly do they mean by "link up"?
as from the reply I received their own "charitable foundation" wants to control all the adoptions and income from these, in their stores..so as i said before ,do they mean we'll display a poster for you..and if so how is that linking up???


Have you thought about linking up with local pet shops that do not sell animals Jill?

many small traders welcome community support so by doing a folder like tamsin did detailing the animals up for rehome to leave at the shop. You could then print off a designed poster for the shop window stating that this shop is supported by rescues, in return you give the shop details to adoptee's in support of pet shops that do not sell livestock;) You could also link up with other rescues in your area that rehome cats, dogs, any animal in fact so the shop gets more trade whilst they support rescues in general by dislaying animals needing new homes;)

[Denny]

Oh no im not now, I had to stop when I went back to uni (money and time)plus I was only small scale I would take in ones being pts by other rescue centres or ones bought into work to be pts and the kennels/vets I worked for (still locum at) are very pro rescue/rehome and myself and my manager coordinated all the rehomes from chickens to dogs to fish :D
I still take desperate animals in now but only one batch at a time!

Thanks for the compliment! Im 32! :( :lol:

blimey, whats your secret to eternal youth:shock::D are you willing to share;)

I think most vets disagree with pet shop sales of animals, its a shame that they all dont come together to add the ever growing population who also feel the same. Being in the animal care profession they may hold more clout behind the reasonings of why they should stop selling:)

[Jack's-Jane]

Well it appears I am no longer in favour with P@H HO.
The Adoption Co-ordinator wont allow me to have her email address
I was told to put further concerns in writing
None of my telephone messages will be past on to the AC

How things can change in a 24 hour period. Perhaps someone else would like to take up the diplomatic mantle

Sorry folks I tried

:cry:

[Tamsin]

I'm curious, how would rescues feel about the 'bad by association' issue if Rabbit Rehome was in the middle of things? E.g. if RR put an 'adoption book' in store which was basically like the pages of RR, with the rabbits details and the contact info for the rescue underneath, but the front was all branded Rabbit Rehome and not any specific rescue.

Tamsin

[Doncat5]

Well it appears I am no longer in favour with P@H HO.
The Adoption Co-ordinator wont allow me to have her email address
I was told to put further concerns in writing
None of my telephone messages will be past on to the AC

How things can change in a 24 hour period. Perhaps someone else would like to take up the diplomatic mantle

Sorry folks I tried

:cry:


Well I think that says a lot! :censored:

[rspcarabbits]

Oh dear, what on earth did you say to them? ....I bet you went and blew it and mentioned you we're into animal welfare and all that new fangled stuff did'nt you....... go on admit it

[Jack's-Jane]

Oh dear, what on earth did you say to them? ....I bet you went and blew it and mentioned you we're into animal welfare and all that new fangled stuff did'nt you....... go on admit it

Like I say, I tried my best. I didn't see any point in ranting at them and I hoped the calm polite approach might work. Obviously not

Janex

[rspcarabbits]

If the pet store in question sells new livestock and is still directly reponsible for its breeding I'm affraid Tamsin you can leave all trace of us out of it.

Our chairperson was initially cautious about us advertising in the freeads because of the other animals advertised there. If there was direct involvement with a pet shop that was still causing the problem in the first place the answer would be no.

May I be as bold Tamsin as to suggest that on behalf of all us rescues , you approach these pet shops and respective head offices and make represtentations to them and plead that they stop selling new livestock.

Then let us know the outcome.

[Tamsin]

Then let us know the outcome.

I think we can guess that without asking :lol:

That's why I'd like to have an alternative to offer them. An 'adoption book' is basically the opportunity for us to be in the store to try and persuade each customer to rescue instead of buy. Take the customers out from right under their noses!

[Lucy]

I don't think it's as bad for other charities other than the rspca really, including things like rabbit rehome. If someone wants to make a complaint of cruelty, neglect or something similar, it is the rspca they would turn to. If the rspca is seen to be involved directly with the shop, that compromises their situation and impartiality.

[Leanne]

blimey, whats your secret to eternal youth:shock::D are you willing to share;)



I sold my soul ;) :lol:

[rspcarabbits]

I can see your thinking Tamsin and I do take on board everything about encouragement and small steps ect but.....

Its like having your cake and eat it. They want to carry on selling new livestock and all that entails including profit but at the same time they want to be a re-homing facility, have their own "private" charity and earn stack loads of "Brownie points".

Sadly there are loads of people who are impressed by this and see it as a "tiger changing its stripes"and it has generated an undue amount of hype on these pages.

The truth is and I repeat it. The two are fundamentally incompatable and at odds with each other. I'm prepared to move our position (and others on these pages have said similar)and say there could be co-operation between us but they have to do the same and move their position. Please explain to me how they have even a little bit.I've not heard one official thing from them only hints and mutterings from "lowly" employee's hence my last request.

At the present time it seems if you ask too many questions of any of them they simply shut up and even refuse to pass on messages. This does not indicate they are that interested in what any of us think but rather they have a "bunker mentallity" to the whole issue.

[Jack's-Jane]

I can see your thinking Tamsin and I do take on board everything about encouragement and small steps ect but.....

Its like having your cake and eat it. They want to carry on selling new livestock and all that entails including profit but at the same time they want to be a re-homing facility, have their own "private" charity and earn stack loads of "Brownie points".

Sadly there are loads of people who are impressed by this and see it as a "tiger changing its stripes"and it has generated an undue amount of hype on these pages.

The truth is and I repeat it. The two are fundamentally incompatable and at odds with each other. I'm prepared to move our position (and others on these pages have said similar)and say there could be co-operation between us but they have to do the same and move their position. Please explain to me how they have even a little bit.I've not heard one official thing from them only hints and mutterings from "lowly" employee's hence my last request.

At the present time it seems if you ask too many questions of any of them they simply shut up and even refuse to pass on messages. This does not indicate they are that interested in what any of us think but rather they have a "bunker mentallity" to the whole issue.

Well said

Janex

[honeybunny]

I'm sure some staff have their hearts and intentions in the right place..but I'm of the opinion that being a company whose reason for existence is to make money..this adoption scheme is only in place to

A) Stop the likes of us complaining!

and B) To find a different more pc-acceptable way of still "selliing" animals and all the equipment that goes with them...

Ker-ching......


I wonder what will happen to the animals handed in for adoption who no one wants? The likes of our Cole who took 15 months to rehome....
or someone dumps 30 rabbits on a store one morning....
Or dental buns/ones with behavioural problems..will PAH continue to pay for dentals and keep these rabbits indefinately......can you see each store ending up with 50 permanent bunsters......?

[Lucy]

I'm glad people are starting to see through the smokescreen.

[Doncat5]

I'm sure some staff have their hearts and intentions in the right place..but I'm of the opinion that being a company whose reason for existence is to make money..this adoption scheme is only in place to

A) Stop the likes of us complaining!

and B) To find a different more pc-acceptable way of still "selliing" animals and all the equipment that goes with them...

Ker-ching......


I wonder what will happen to the animals handed in for adoption who no one wants? The likes of our Cole who took 15 months to rehome....
or someone dumps 30 rabbits on a store one morning....
Or dental buns/ones with behavioural problems..will PAH continue to pay for dentals and keep these rabbits indefinately......can you see each store ending up with 50 permanent bunsters......?


Well, I'll have a good guess at what will happen with the dental buns, but the ones with behavioural problems, now I wonder???? Unless P@H have some dedicated, rabbit savvy staff, who also happen to have a lot of free time, and who are prepared to put the time and effort into helping a problem bun become suitable for homing..... then it looks like the rescues will still be needed.

I do think its a step in the right direction, but I really cant help feeling that P@H have just embarked on a huge marketing ploy and not only do they get to 'resell' their returned stock, but they give themsleves a good label at the same time, oh and if theyre really lucky, they get to sell another hutch and accessories to the next owner.... good business plan that!

I dont for a minute doubt that there are some sincere caring employees, who have the rabbits best interest at heart, but unless things majorly change, it'll always be 'them and us', which is a real shame. P@H are in a prime position to lead the way, and change things forever, I just hope in a few years time they go the whole hog..... until they do, I'll carry on spending my money elsewhere.

[Leanne]

I'm sure some staff have their hearts and intentions in the right place..but I'm of the opinion that being a company whose reason for existence is to make money..this adoption scheme is only in place to

A) Stop the likes of us complaining!

and B) To find a different more pc-acceptable way of still "selliing" animals and all the equipment that goes with them...

Ker-ching......


I wonder what will happen to the animals handed in for adoption who no one wants? The likes of our Cole who took 15 months to rehome....
or someone dumps 30 rabbits on a store one morning....
Or dental buns/ones with behavioural problems..will PAH continue to pay for dentals and keep these rabbits indefinately......can you see each store ending up with 50 permanent bunsters......?

If my local store is anything to go by...they leave them all weekend with no treatment and then pts on the Monday even though a home and veterinary care has been offered :evil:

[Leanne]

I do think its a step in the right direction, but I really cant help feeling that P@H have just embarked on a huge marketing ploy and not only do they get to 'resell' their returned stock, but they give themsleves a good label at the same time, oh and if theyre really lucky, they get to sell another hutch and accessories to the next owner.... good business plan that!



Spot on.

[Jack's-Jane]

I'm glad people are starting to see through the smokescreen.

Too bloody right :evil:

It went against all my beliefs to give them a chance, didn't get me very far did it :roll:

All they are interested in is ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££


:censored:

Janex

[rspcarabbits]

So do I now take it this post gas gone full circle?

What we thought we knew and critisized partially gave way to critisizing those who thought they knew only to be replaced by critisizing what we knew and thought all the way along.

Oh and of course a smattering of smoke ,mirrors and mis -direction to the ohhhhh's and ahhhhhh's of the crowd.


Or have I over simplified it?

[Lucy]

So do I now take it this post gas gone full circle?

What we thought we knew and critisized partially gave way to critisizing those who thought they knew only to be replaced by critisizing what we knew and thought all the way along.

Oh and of course a smattering of smoke ,mirrors and mis -direction to the ohhhhh's and ahhhhhh's of the crowd.


Or have I over simplified it?


:lol::lol:I'm glad it wasn't me that said I told you so :lol: :lol:

[Jack's-Jane]

Nothing like being made to feel a fool for wanting to try to help....................:roll:

Makes me wonder why I bother when even those supposedly on the same side take a pop at anyone trying a less 'all guns blazing I am right' approach.

Has anything by achieved by all the point scoring..........

nope sod all :roll:

Janex

[rspcarabbits]

We care about the rabbits that come into our lives and we even care about the lives of those rabbits we cannot directly help...... What a strange concept.

Its not about scoring points, kudos, money or appearence with us and many of the people like us in these pages, its purely rabbit welfare and an attempt to cut down the degree of suffering others seem blind to.

If we personally are doing anything wrong and somebody highlights it to us we will talk to them and change.

That is all we ask of others.

[alexandrahickey]

Nothing like being made to feel a fool for wanting to try to help....................:roll:

Makes me wonder why I bother when even those supposedly on the same side take a pop at anyone trying a less 'all guns blazing I am right' approach.

Has anything by achieved by all the point scoring..........

nope sod all :roll:

Janex

I'm really sorry that again PAH have failed you. I'm not sticking up for them as I feel they are wrong and have missed an opportunity to do the right thing...again. I am truly disappointed and ashamed of the company right now.:oops: If its the lady I think it is then I'm even more disappointed because she was so lovely when she came to the store and stood and listened and agreed with most of our complaints about adoption, the 2 for £36 deal and the size of some of the cages we sell and the labels on them.
I know that we're wrong to sell livestock but I have alwyas believed we are a reputable company and we do what we do well.
Slowly starting to lose faith. I still believe I do a good job though and for the time I'm there I will continue to put the animals first. My arms at present are :censored: up after trying to clean out a grumpy bun who was given to us becuase he was aggressive and had damaged his previous owners arms so bad she was in bandages. Think mine are going the same way! He is getting neutered though so hopefully that along with time and patience will calm him down. Any tips are very welcome! I've also created my own version of the adoption form so I can get as much info on each animal we take in. I know its nowhere near what you all want but I can't just hop in a car and go and homecheck them all as I dont think Im allowed to and I also dont drive!
I know youre most probably thinking why stick with the job but its not as simple as to just leave. I have dependants ( 2 cats and a dog!) and I can't afford to get on my moral high horse and leave because the irony of it all would be that my animals ended up in one of your rescues because I couldnt afford to keep them. Again I'm so sorry.

[Tamsin]

Well not trying's just as good as giving up so I for one think making an effort is worth it even if it doesn't result in what you hope. It doesn't even mean it made no difference talking to people might not mean immediate action but at least it gives them something to think about and that might bare fruit further down the line.

[Denny]

Well not trying's just as good as giving up so I for one think making an effort is worth it even if it doesn't result in what you hope. It doesn't even mean it made no difference talking to people might not mean immediate action but at least it gives them something to think about and that might bare fruit further down the line.

I agrreeeee and some-times it takes a while to correct mistakes or take on board suggestions:) Only time will tell if the heads at p@h heed advice and suggestions and change their policies for the health and welfare of animals. They clearly listened to the piggy's and bunnies being kept together and it did take time for them to alter this so maybe they will listen to advice on the adoption scheme side of things too:?

Alexandra, I wouldn't even contemplate giving up your job, whilst there are very few of you who do care in their stores but have your hands tied to certain extent by p@h HO, who knows, you maybe one that can make a difference and get things changed for the better regarding the adoption scheme;):)

[doorkeeper]

I'm curious, how would rescues feel about the 'bad by association' issue if Rabbit Rehome was in the middle of things? E.g. if RR put an 'adoption book' in store which was basically like the pages of RR, with the rabbits details and the contact info for the rescue underneath, but the front was all branded Rabbit Rehome and not any specific rescue.

Tamsin

I think this would be better, much better. We have information listed in quite a few places; if Pets @ Home was just one more it is not a problem in the way that being linked to them would be.

It could also solve my problem of not having time to deal with them.

[Tamsin]

I think this would be better, much better. We have information listed in quite a few places; if Pets @ Home was just one more it is not a problem in the way that being linked to them would be.

It could also solve my problem of not having time to deal with them.

Thanks, it's good to hear at least one rescue would be interested. I have some updates to do to RR and then I'll approach them and see if we can trial it. The updates could be sent by email/fax to the managers to update or it might need a volunteer to visit to update but that could be shared by a couple of people so not too much work if you haven't got running a rescue to keep you busy as well :)


On a different note, did anyone see the snippet in Rabbiting On about sales being down and 2000 rabbit going through their adoption scheme a month? I wonder how many of those are ones that would have gone to rescue and how many ones that people decided to give up because P@H is convenient.

Tamsin

[Jack's-Jane]

Thanks, it's good to hear at least one rescue would be interested. I have some updates to do to RR and then I'll approach them and see if we can trial it. The updates could be sent by email/fax to the managers to update or it might need a volunteer to visit to update but that could be shared by a couple of people so not too much work if you haven't got running a rescue to keep you busy as well :)


On a different note, did anyone see the snippet in Rabbiting On about sales being down and 2000 rabbit going through their adoption scheme a month? I wonder how many of those are ones that would have gone to rescue and how many ones that people decided to give up because P@H is convenient.

Tamsin

Or how many were unsold 'old' stock.............:roll:

I am sorry but my recent experience with P@H has done nothing but confirm my belief that they have one motive and that is to generate profit. They may dress it up in a cutesy, caring sharing way. They fooled me....almost. But until the day P@H and all other retail outlets cease exploiting innocent animals to make a finacial profit I have no time for them.
End of....................

:evil:

Janex

[doorkeeper]

Thanks, it's good to hear at least one rescue would be interested. I have some updates to do to RR and then I'll approach them and see if we can trial it. The updates could be sent by email/fax to the managers to update or it might need a volunteer to visit to update but that could be shared by a couple of people so not too much work if you haven't got running a rescue to keep you busy as well :)


On a different note, did anyone see the snippet in Rabbiting On about sales being down and 2000 rabbit going through their adoption scheme a month? I wonder how many of those are ones that would have gone to rescue and how many ones that people decided to give up because P@H is convenient.

Tamsin

If our local shop (Redditch branch) wants to be involved:? They were not part of the scheme that preceded the adopton scheme which is why the letter we got inviting us to be linked came from an hours drive away.

On the rehoming of old stock I think it is only right they should put them through the adoption scheme - at least they are taking responsibility for them, not sending them back to the breeder to be culled or used as breeding stock. Likewise where they take responsibility for animals they have sold who are no longer wanted. It is the thought of rabbits in need in general going out of the frying pan into the fire that upsets me, particularly locally where we are already here to rescue them properly. Not that their rabbits deserve any less but that they(Pets@Home) could learn by doing the right thing for once, and maybe think twice about having so many bred for them to sell.

[Denny]

On a different note, did anyone see the snippet in Rabbiting On about sales being down and 2000 rabbit going through their adoption scheme a month? I wonder how many of those are ones that would have gone to rescue and how many ones that people decided to give up because P@H is convenient.

Tamsin

I did and have interpretted the 'we have converted a significant number of sales to adoptions;' sentence as being the majority of their own stock that is up for adoption which leads me to believe that the 13% drop in sales is due to the full price of the rabbit being lost when it goes through as a donation :?

2000 rabbits in 139 stores is quite alot in one month and with plans to increase the number of stores doing the adoption scheme, cannot help wonder if many rescues will suffer from this:?:( I suppose time will tell for those rescues who are the doorstep of a p@h adoption scheme because prior to this scheme there were 2 reasons why some-one would buy from a petshop

a/ they would not pass a homecheck or failed a homecheck
b/ they did not know about rescues

But now we will possible see option c/ both of the above with the added bonus of the rabbit being cheaper than a rescue or pet shop full price and no home check required:?

[honeybunny]

I think rescues will be hit by this.

and PAH are profiting as they are now "selling" 2nd hand rabbits along with all the equipment that goes with them....

They will have no need to buy in stock in future as, we all no, the supply of unwanted rabbits is never ending...but, if they fail to homecheck, and some of their staff have no idea on care anyway..the rabbits will still suffer.

Yesterday I went to homecheck and give advice to someone who has adopted 2 rabbits from PAH..they are very nice and love the bunnies dearly.
However they were allowed to "adopt" a 2nd rabbit, who was known to be aggressive and given little advice on bonding...As I found out yesterday their male bun is very territorial and aggressive to other buns too...so if they had attempted bondong themselves they would have ended up with 2 very badly injured rabbits
They hadn't tried to bond due to the new buns destructiveness.
They now want to rehome her, they are genuinely upset at this, and have asked me to bond their bun with a Honeybunny.
But they are not returning doe to PAH to be "readopted"..even though they are champions of the scheme?
Why...? well one is they want the rabbit to go to a home that is checked..
says it all.............

As I've said before PAH should have stopped sellling animals and supported local rescues already doing the homing job properly....

Their profits mean they can swallow the costs of some vets bills ..but if their success at "adoption" means some smaller rescues run from the pockets of the owners..have to close...what then happens in emergencey cases?

I'm afraid I see PAH choosing which buns they take in for selling....and alot being quietly PTS..afterall who will stay up all night syringe feeding, say 6, sick rabbits?

[Doncat5]

I think homechecks are crucial ..... not just to make sure its a suitable home.... but I think a bunny who has been unwanted and given up already, deserves the chance of a perfect forever home. Who to say the second owner wont get bored and return it.... though P@H will make a fortune selling the same bun over and over again, each time with a new hutch.... and they wont have to buy any new 'stock'. I'm really quite disappointed with it and a bit bit sad. :(

[Lucy]

If our local shop (Redditch branch) wants to be involved:? They were not part of the scheme that preceded the adopton scheme which is why the letter we got inviting us to be linked came from an hours drive away.

On the rehoming of old stock I think it is only right they should put them through the adoption scheme - at least they are taking responsibility for them, not sending them back to the breeder to be culled or used as breeding stock. Likewise where they take responsibility for animals they have sold who are no longer wanted. It is the thought of rabbits in need in general going out of the frying pan into the fire that upsets me, particularly locally where we are already here to rescue them properly. Not that their rabbits deserve any less but that they(Pets@Home) could learn by doing the right thing for once, and maybe think twice about having so many bred for them to sell.

So why can't they have a sliding scale of prices and sell the rabbits, rather than filtering them through an adoption scheme? If people will buy an older rabbit from the adoption centre, why not from normal sales? I believe the general public is led to believe that animals in the adoption centre are animals that come from the public and they are rehoming them, not that this is non saleable stock going cheap.

[Cob-Web]

Just to complicate the issue a bit - my local PAH "charity" is cash only, and presumably, (as it goes to a registered charity rather than the company) the money goes through a different set of account books than their store takings? How do "businesses" like PAH manage to keep the finances separate when they run a charity alongside? The rescue animals are obviously in the store? Does the charity pay for the board for these rescue pets - or does PAH business? What does the money donated to their charity actually pay for?

I tried to buy a couple of calendars that they had next to the till in a box marked £1 each to the PAH Charity Fund yesterday - but they told me I had to put cash in the box, I couldn't add the cost to the rest of my shopping :roll:

[Lucy]

Maybe you should look at how the charity money is spent... or not spent on animals before you consider putting money in there again.

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/showcharity.asp?remchar=&chyno=1104152

[Cob-Web]

Maybe you should look at how the charity money is spent... or not spent on animals before you consider putting money in there again.

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/showcharity.asp?remchar=&chyno=1104152

OMG, that is awful :roll: It kind of proves that it is just a front really; it provides some "feel good" publicity; but actually, they are taking donations and doing precisely nothing with them :censored:

[unalakey]

Maybe you should look at how the charity money is spent... or not spent on animals before you consider putting money in there again.

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/showcharity.asp?remchar=&chyno=1104152

OMG that is ridiculous:shock:

[katie7]

So what happened to all that money?

[Denny]

hang on guys, that audit was for the year Apr 06 - March 07, the adoption scheme wasnt even running then I dont think :lol::lol:so maybe this years when submitted will have a different expenditure amount;):lol::lol: You have to remember that the money raised on the company commisions website accounts does just that, states the amount, it does not tell you where that charity money went so everyone is assuming they are sitting on it I take it:lol::lol::lol: I know the dogs trust is one that this charity donates too, cannot think off hand what the others are but perhaps the charitys that the p@h charity give to are those ones to look up to see what they received in donations;);)

Charity - Business, two entirely different entities, if you want to know what p@h yearly accounts are as a business then check it out with Companies House;)

[Tamsin]

Yep, it makes sense to save money before you embark on a scheme like that. It will be the next years accounts that will be more telling.

[Lucy]

hang on guys, that audit was for the year Apr 06 - March 07, the adoption scheme wasnt even running then I dont think :lol::lol:so maybe this years when submitted will have a different expenditure amount;):lol::lol: You have to remember that the money raised on the company commisions website accounts does just that, states the amount, it does not tell you where that charity money went so everyone is assuming they are sitting on it I take it:lol::lol::lol: I know the dogs trust is one that this charity donates too, cannot think off hand what the others are but perhaps the charitys that the p@h charity give to are those ones to look up to see what they received in donations;);)

Charity - Business, two entirely different entities, if you want to know what p@h yearly accounts are as a business then check it out with Companies House;)

Not at all. If the adoption scheme wasn't running there is plenty of other things on the page which they state that they were raising money for which they clearly haven't done. Are you seriously trying to tell me you believe that they have been collecting all that money over the last 3-4 years and saving it for the adoption scheme (which sells their old stock in many cases)?? I really do not think so.

That page shows clearly what was raised during a year and what was spent. The amount in not cumulative. I know because I can tell from whats on our page. What we raise is near enough what we spend. If they had donated some to a chariity it would show in the expenditiure.

If anyone can come up with a viable answer to why they have been hoarding money and not spending it on what they claim to be raising it for I would be interested to know about it.

[Cob-Web]

You have to remember that the money raised on the company commisions website accounts does just that, states the amount, it does not tell you where that charity money went so everyone is assuming they are sitting on it I take it:lol::lol::lol:

I take it you mean Charity Commission, not company commission ;)

The "accounts" I am referring to are for the Pets At Home Charitable Foundation and it clearly states that in 2006/07, the charities income was £37,125 and the expenditure was £46. The £25,000 donation from PAH was made two years prior to that, so were the h**l did the £37, 125 come from in 2006/07, and where is it? It certainly hasn't been spent, according to the accounts submitted to the charities Commission :shock:

The PAH Charitable Foundation stated - at the end of the 2004/05 financial year (again from documentation on the charity Commission website) that it "is to undertake a new direction in 2007, aligning itself far more with the support and adoption of animals. Store <sic> will actively promote this policy and are anticipating substantial monies being raised in the new use of the Foundation"

From what I can gather, grants are available from this Foundation to groups and individuals who meet the criteria; perhaps some of the Rescue groups here could apply for some of that money that has already been raised; there doesn't seen to be a shortage ;)

Edited to Add: I have just tracked down the Trustees of the Charitable Foundation - there are four listed on the Charity Commission Website:

MR NIGEL FREELOVE
I wonder if this is the same Nigel Freelove that holds the post of IT Director of Pets At Home Ltd?

MRS CATRIONA MARSHALL
Could this possibly be the same Catriona Marshall that holds the post of Trading Dorector of Pets at Home Ltd?

MRS LOUISE STONIER
Perhaps the same Louise Stonier who is Head of the Pets At Home Ltd Legal Team?

JONATHAN HURST
I can;t find Mr Hurst anywhere......I wonder who he is? I'll keep looking :?

[unalakey]

The plot thickens:?

[Denny]

Not at all. If the adoption scheme wasn't running there is plenty of other things on the page which they state that they were raising money for which they clearly haven't done. Are you seriously trying to tell me you believe that they have been collecting all that money over the last 3-4 years and saving it for the adoption scheme (which sells their old stock in many cases)?? I really do not think so.

I never said they have been saving money for the past 3-4 years to start the adoption scheme:lol::lol: where did you get that impression from:lol::lol:

That page shows clearly what was raised during a year and what was spent. The amount in not cumulative. I know because I can tell from whats on our page. What we raise is near enough what we spend. If they had donated some to a chariity it would show in the expenditiure.

What you raise and other rescues raise is going to be different to the p@h charity as they did not have any expenditure except for account fee's as they did not cater for animals in need in their care like adoption centres do. If they have any expenditure from animals being sold then the funds would have to come from their business account and not the charity account;)

This years accounts should be different if the staff members here are saying that the adoption buns are being treated as this will work the same as the rescues and the funds will come from the charity fund and not from the business funds, albeit probably not a full years worth of expenditures as the adoption scheme has not been going that long:)

How do any of us know that the monies raised for that year were then distributed amongst the charities that this fund supports after they submitted it to the charity commision board:lol:

If anyone can come up with a viable answer to why they have been hoarding money and not spending it on what they claim to be raising it for I would be interested to know about it.

If you have serious doubts that they are not distributed these funds to the appropriate charities that they list as supporting then I would advise that you contact the charity commisions with your concerns as I am sure they would not be happy to hear this ;)

Thanks Cb-Web, yes I meant charity commissions, got cuffuddled with charity commissions and companies house:lol::lol:

[Lucy]

From what I can see the Objects stated by the charity were not updated. In 2004 they stated the money was for :

TO PROVIDE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PUBLIC, IN PARTICULAR: A) THE ADVANCEMENT OF EDUCATION, RESEARCH AND TRAINING; B) THE PROMOTION OF COMMUNITY PARTICIPATION IN HEALTHY RECREATION; C) TO PROVIDE OR ASSIST IN THE PROVISION OF FACILITIES IN THE INTERESTS OF SOCIAL WELFARE FOR RECREATION OR OTHER LEISURE TIME OCCUPATION OF INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE NEED OF SUCH FACILITIES BY REASON OF THEIR YOUTH, AGE INFIRMITY OR DISABILITY, FINANCIAL HARDSHIP OR SOCIAL CIRCUMSTANCES WITH OBJECT OF IMPROVING THEIR CONDITIONS OF LIFE; D) TO PROMOTE HUMANE BEHAVIOUR TOWARDS ANIMALS BY PROVIDING APPROPRIATE CARE, PROTECTION, TREATMENT AND SECURITY FOR ANIMALS WHICH ARE IN NEED OF CARE AND ATTENTION BY REASON OF SICKNESS, MALTREATMENT, POOR CIRCUMSTANCES OR ILL USAGE AND TO EDUCATE THE PUBLIC IN MATTERS PERTAINING TO ANIMAL WELFARE IN GENERAL AND THE PREVENTION OF CRUELTY AND SUFFERING AMONG ANIMALS; E) TO PROMOTE THE PRESERVATION OF RARE OR ENDANGERED SPECIES IN THEIR NATURAL HABITAT AND THEIR PROTECTION FROM EXTINCTION FOR THE PUBLIC BENEFIT; AND F) THE RELIEF OF POVERTY.

In 2004 to March 2005 out of £25 000 (which I assume was the 25 k that people are saying pets at home 'business' donated to it) they spent £8,736, thats 35% of their income.

In 2005 up to March 2006 they raised a further £8,190 (making a total of £24 454) and spent £36. They had not changed their objectives to say they were doing anything else with the money other than what they originally submitted.

In 2006 up to March 2007 they raised a further £37,125 (making a total of £61 543) and spent £46. That leaves us with a total of £61 497. In total they've have raised £70 315 and spent £8818 over 3 years. Thats a 12.5% spend of they money raised.

If they are now using this money tofund the adoption scheme, it would seem to me that in the last 3 years someone should have updated their charity aims and objectives as they are not meeting them.

Also, if that money has been donated by the public, should they not be being more open about what they money they are raising is for?

I find it incredible they have raised that money which can now filter off old stock for them when they get too old to sell (which is a ridiculous notion to me anyway).

I feel that the money would have been much better spent on local rescues who do the job of rehoming properly and throughly.

[Lucy]

I never said they have been saving money for the past 3-4 years to start the adoption scheme:lol::lol: where did you get that impression from:lol::lol:



What you raise and other rescues raise is going to be different to the p@h charity as they did not have any expenditure except for account fee's as they did not cater for animals in need in their care like adoption centres do. If they have any expenditure from animals being sold then the funds would have to come from their business account and not the charity account;)

This years accounts should be different if the staff members here are saying that the adoption buns are being treated as this will work the same as the rescues and the funds will come from the charity fund and not from the business funds, albeit probably not a full years worth of expenditures as the adoption scheme has not been going that long:)

How do any of us know that the monies raised for that year were then distributed amongst the charities that this fund supports after they submitted it to the charity commision board:lol:



If you have serious doubts that they are not distributed these funds to the appropriate charities that they list as supporting then I would advise that you contact the charity commisions with your concerns as I am sure they would not be happy to hear this ;)

Thanks Cb-Web, yes I meant charity commissions, got cuffuddled with charity commissions and companies house:lol::lol:


This years accounts may well be different, but what about the previous years when they have done nothing with the money? If the money was donated in 2005 and it wasn't in 2005's accounts, it would have shown in 2006.

[Cob-Web]

I would advise that you contact the charity commisions with your concerns as I am sure they would not be happy to hear this ;)

Done - I'll keep you posted ;)


Edited to add - I got a reply this morning (11/02/08) from Charity Commission Direct to say that they have passed the enquiry onto a "Specialist Operational Team" and I will hear within 15 working days - so watch this space in the next three weeks and I'll let you know what they say.

[Denny]

Done - I'll keep you posted ;)


Edited to add - I got a reply this morning (11/02/08) from Charity Commission Direct to say that they have passed the enquiry onto a "Specialist Operational Team" and I will hear within 15 working days - so watch this space in the next three weeks and I'll let you know what they say.

well done:D:D

still doing some research but if you fancy contacting the blue cross and asking them if this amount raised was through p@h charitable foundation or whether this money raised was through their own labeled boxes in p@h stores;)

If it was raised through the p@h charity then whay is this amount not declared on the charities commision site and worth mentioning this to them too;)

http://www.bluecross.org.uk/web/site/News/2007/Pets_at_Home.asp

[Lucy]

Done - I'll keep you posted ;)


Edited to add - I got a reply this morning (11/02/08) from Charity Commission Direct to say that they have passed the enquiry onto a "Specialist Operational Team" and I will hear within 15 working days - so watch this space in the next three weeks and I'll let you know what they say.

Well done for that, I will be very interested in what they say.

[starlover]

When i read your comments i get a bit disheartened. The adoption centre is set up for people who can no longer look after their animals for whatever reason and sometimes the firm is given animals because they have become a burden or are ill. The adoption charity ie previous donations, are what funds the charity ie pays for vets bills etc. not the company itself. It does not just put old stock that they can't sell as a rule but some rogue stores probably do do it. I have recently adopted a bunny from them and they had him castrated and had his molars burred. They informed me of all his medical treatment before i agreed to take him and they do not knowingly sell or let people adopt sick animals. I know a lot of people who work these guys and find the majority of staff great.

[BeckyLH]

Starlover, the bunny in your sig is absolutely stunning, sorry to go off topic, but it is :)

x

[Cob-Web]

When i read your comments i get a bit disheartened. The adoption centre is set up for people who can no longer look after their animals for whatever reason and sometimes the firm is given animals because they have become a burden or are ill. The adoption charity ie previous donations, are what funds the charity ie pays for vets bills etc. not the company itself. It does not just put old stock that they can't sell as a rule but some rogue stores probably do do it. I have recently adopted a bunny from them and they had him castrated and had his molars burred. They informed me of all his medical treatment before i agreed to take him and they do not knowingly sell or let people adopt sick animals. I know a lot of people who work these guys and find the majority of staff great.


I am sure that the majority of staff are fabulous, and I have no doubt that some of the animals that are *rescued* by PAH are genuine. My concerns lie with the way in which the charity is presenting itself, the potential for conflict of interest, and the fact that there is money unspent when there are so many animals in desperate need (and thousands pts just because there is not room for them) :?

If the Charity Commission are happy with the way in which the PAH Charity and it's funds are administered and managed, then hopefully, the few rogue stores that are referred to in this thread will be dealt with by the trustees.

[dylanflo]

I usually stay silent on this subject but.... I went into Pets at Home on Sat to get some other things and saw a lady rabbit who had hay allergy and has been there four weeks or more. I took the rabbit home with me. Shes gorgeous.... just what I was looking for. I took the whole situation at face value and thought I am quite happy to deal with this, she was at risk of someone else taking her home who couldnt afford vet bills which she possibly may incur and I felt comfortable with it. Whether or not that was wrong the rabbit concerned is now in a good home. I dont feel I acted wrongly. I am comfortable with it. Rabbits cosily tucked up in our living room and she needed help just like any rescue bunny. If I have further health problems with her then I have the resources to deal with it. There thats my piece said....

[abbymarysmokey]

I usually stay silent on this subject but.... I went into Pets at Home on Sat to get some other things and saw a lady rabbit who had hay allergy and has been there four weeks or more.


I'm sure you're not the first person to adopt a rabbit with a 'hay allergy' from P@H.

I wonder if they are from the same branch, or different branches?

I'm not saying hay allergies don't exist (I have no idea if they do) but seems like an odd diagnosis for snuffles????

[Lucy]

I get very irrate with this attitude. People think they are doing the right thing by taking a sick rabbit on, but all you are doing is keeping them in business and taking the responsibilty away from those who should be dealing with it. Would you be happy for other rabbits to be left like that? What if someone who knew nothing of rabbits brought it and left the snuffles, sorry, hay allergy to fester?

[rspcarabbits]

I usually stay silent on this subject but.... I went into Pets at Home on Sat to get some other things and saw a lady rabbit who had hay allergy and has been there four weeks or more. I took the rabbit home with me. Shes gorgeous.... just what I was looking for. I took the whole situation at face value and thought I am quite happy to deal with this, she was at risk of someone else taking her home who couldnt afford vet bills which she possibly may incur and I felt comfortable with it. Whether or not that was wrong the rabbit concerned is now in a good home. I dont feel I acted wrongly. I am comfortable with it. Rabbits cosily tucked up in our living room and she needed help just like any rescue bunny. If I have further health problems with her then I have the resources to deal with it. There thats my piece said....

Firstly I am really glad you have found the right rabbit for you:D ....but can I just reiterate the observation that when a true rescue re-homes a bunny the space left behind is just filled by another rabbit in need. We do not create the problem in the first place,we do not need to have full runs ,we do not "obtain" stock and we do not have to have rabbits in for customers to see .In fact if we were empty we would be happy.

This is in no way personal critisism of you but many of us feel there is a clear difference in the way a rescue operates and that of many pet shops.This difference is important for the casual reader to acknowledge and in fact that is the essence of many of the heated articles in this thread.

[sdf76]

I have not read all the threads as there are too many and will send this to
Lspacehopper and alexandrahickey privately too.

Pets at Home is a business which (like any business)needs people to come into their store to buy the products,and rabbits draw the crowds.

However in this age of technology why not have an area of seating and a screen showing some of the rabbits for adoption at a local rescue centre?

The screen could show the rabbits kept longest at the adoption centre hopping around and still pictures of any new ones with a voice over - eg "This gorgeous rabbit is Billy -a neutered 3yr old Rex. He lives with his partner Jill, a friendly 2yr old rex rabbit. They would love to have a home with you. The adoption fee is £**. Please tel "Bunnikins Rabbit Rescue on 01242.......to make arrangements".etc

Then it would be up to the rescue centre to arrange the homecheck and give advice (as they do now).

People go to see a large screen. It would draw the crowds just as much as live rabbits.
I'm sure someone at PAH Head Office could liase with rescue centres to set this up if PAH funded the movie?
I'm pleased that there are at least 2 people in PAH management that are trying their best to improve things and want to learn and I think we should try to help them if we can.
Few of us started as experts on rabbits and I am still learning after many years of rabbit keeping.

If you really want live rabbits in store then you could maybe ask someone from the rescue centre to come to your store with a rabbit for a short while on a certain day for people to see and chat about adoptions and what food is best etc. You could advertise this visit on the screen too.(The rabbit rescue would always recommend a large hutch so you will get more profit than if a person just bought the smallest hutch)

This would replace the hutches with live rabbits so you would no longer have the cost of them. You could take a percentage of the adoption fee that you jointly set(in agreement with the rescue centre) to cover the cost of the movies and profit margin.
Maybe rescues would agree to promote PAH goods if it had stopped selling live rabbits in the future? Who knows!
It would be good if PAH could be come to be known in the future as promoters of animal welfare-now wouldn't THAT improve sales of products.

PAH needs to work with the rescues to do this. I'm glad there is direct contact with PAH managment on here and hope that you will find a way forward together.-Sue:wave:

[Denny]

Can I ask those who have adopted a rabbit from the p@h scheme why they chose this route of adoption rather than seek one from a rescue?

[Denny]

I usually stay silent on this subject but.... I went into Pets at Home on Sat to get some other things and saw a lady rabbit who had hay allergy and has been there four weeks or more. I took the rabbit home with me. Shes gorgeous.... just what I was looking for. I took the whole situation at face value and thought I am quite happy to deal with this, she was at risk of someone else taking her home who couldnt afford vet bills which she possibly may incur and I felt comfortable with it. Whether or not that was wrong the rabbit concerned is now in a good home. I dont feel I acted wrongly. I am comfortable with it. Rabbits cosily tucked up in our living room and she needed help just like any rescue bunny. If I have further health problems with her then I have the resources to deal with it. There thats my piece said....

Hi Dylanflo:wave:

I take it you disagree with the p@h adoption scheme if you felt she was at risk of some-one else adopting her that could possibly be unable to cater for her needs or future needs;) Does this mean that we should be more concerned at those who wish to adopt a bunny from p@h as apposed to purchasing one as the adoption scheme is considerably cheaper than buying one?

[Aimee84]

Hi
I think your idea is great sdf76. Dunno how feasible but think that would be the best possible resolution to the problem - evryone would be happy potential owners, rescues, PAH and of course the bunnies :)

[MaxiandScottandbuns]

Can I ask those who have adopted a rabbit from the p@h scheme why they chose this route of adoption rather than seek one from a rescue?

We very naively adopted Joey from P@H rescue...we had NO idea what we were buying into, and this was way before wed discovered rabbitrehome or realised how many thousands of bunnies were in REAL shelters all over the country

Can i just say we both feel absolutely terrible:( I do not agree with what P@H are doing and dont agree with their scheme

Since finding out its our plan to one day set up a rescue of our own out in the country

But of course we love Joey, hes our baby and is spoilt and were glad we gave him this chance of a better life rather than him ending up unwanted. Hes an agouti and we were told all his siblings had been taken very quickly but he remained, and he was such a sweetie

To answer the question, we did it because we didnt realise the scale of the problem with unwanted buns at the time, and because we didnt know about the shadiness of P@h (Wed been regular customers for years) Also because we saw Joey and just knew we were supposed to take him home. But these arent excuses, its silly of us to plead ignorance when finding out was so easy

But we will never, ever do this again. Giving our money to that company for all that time was a mistake. I feel so bad for all the poor unwanted perfectly lovely buns out there right now

[Lspacehopper]

We very naively adopted Joey from P@H rescue...we had NO idea what we were buying into, and this was way before wed discovered rabbitrehome or realised how many thousands of bunnies were in REAL shelters all over the country

Can i just say we both feel absolutely terrible:( I do not agree with what P@H are doing and dont agree with their scheme

Since finding out its our plan to one day set up a rescue of our own out in the country

But of course we love Joey, hes our baby and is spoilt and were glad we gave him this chance of a better life rather than him ending up unwanted. Hes an agouti and we were told all his siblings had been taken very quickly but he remained, and he was such a sweetie

To answer the question, we did it because we didnt realise the scale of the problem with unwanted buns at the time, and because we didnt know about the shadiness of P@h (Wed been regular customers for years) Also because we saw Joey and just knew we were supposed to take him home. But these arent excuses, its silly of us to plead ignorance when finding out was so easy

But we will never, ever do this again. Giving our money to that company for all that time was a mistake. I feel so bad for all the poor unwanted perfectly lovely buns out there right now


Ah right....so a rabbit brought into the PAH adoption scheme isn't entitled to as good a home as a rabbit from a rescue centre?

I'm reading this time and time again and it saddens me. We currently have 5 rabbits in store looking for homes. 3 boys from a family who thought it would be fun to breed their rabbits and realised they couldn't find a home for them. One boy whose family decided they didn't want him anymore. One boy whose owner abandoned him with his flatmates (allegedly). None of the rabbits came from us. So....because these rabbits were brought into a PAH adoption scheme, they aren't entitled to find a good home?

[BeckyLH]

I agree actually, I don't agree with most of what P@H stands for, but I do feel sorry for the animals, particularly in genuine cases.

[nursecroft]

I dont see how this is all directed to PAH, there is haskins that sell rabbits and many numerous pet stores, tackling one big store will not solve the problem, enforcing proper rules and regulations on making sure these rabbits go to appropriate responsible homes and making sure people are well educated on how much time, money and love rabbits need will. Hopefully all stores eventually will be banned from selling all livestock.:(

[Denny]

We very naively adopted Joey from P@H rescue...we had NO idea what we were buying into, and this was way before wed discovered rabbitrehome or realised how many thousands of bunnies were in REAL shelters all over the country

Can i just say we both feel absolutely terrible I do not agree with what P@H are doing and dont agree with their scheme

Since finding out its our plan to one day set up a rescue of our own out in the country

But of course we love Joey, hes our baby and is spoilt and were glad we gave him this chance of a better life rather than him ending up unwanted. Hes an agouti and we were told all his siblings had been taken very quickly but he remained, and he was such a sweetie

To answer the question, we did it because we didnt realise the scale of the problem with unwanted buns at the time, and because we didnt know about the shadiness of P@h (Wed been regular customers for years) Also because we saw Joey and just knew we were supposed to take him home. But these arent excuses, its silly of us to plead ignorance when finding out was so easy

But we will never, ever do this again. Giving our money to that company for all that time was a mistake. I feel so bad for all the poor unwanted perfectly lovely buns out there right now

Ah right....so a rabbit brought into the PAH adoption scheme isn't entitled to as good a home as a rabbit from a rescue centre?

I'm reading this time and time again and it saddens me. We currently have 5 rabbits in store looking for homes. 3 boys from a family who thought it would be fun to breed their rabbits and realised they couldn't find a home for them. One boy whose family decided they didn't want him anymore. One boy whose owner abandoned him with his flatmates (allegedly). None of the rabbits came from us. So....because these rabbits were brought into a PAH adoption scheme, they aren't entitled to find a good home?

I dont think Maxandscot are saying that they are not entitled to as good a home as a rabbit from a rescue centre, like the rest of us discovered one time or another, myself included here, had we of known about rabbit rescues/RR and how many are in need of a home and how many have been in rescue for soooo long we would of taken that route first rather than purchase from a pet shop or adopt from a scheme that has not been going that long but still sells rabbits along side the adoption scheme.

I dont regret my purchase of my first rabbit from p@h but had I of known how many rabbits were in need or indeed, how many rabbit rescues were out there at the time I would of certainly opted to adopt rather than purchase;)

I suppose what I dont understand is how a company can support adoption of animals in need but sell them at the same time, surely the ones in need were originally purchased from somewhere so how can the two go hand in hand:?:?:?

Realistically, p@h have the finances and public access to be able to market their adoption scheme where as many many rescues do not have such funds or marketing structures to be able to publise their rescues so the general public are un-aware that their are many many rescues out their.

If p@h truely supported the adoption of needy animals then I would hope that they would consider a directory accessible to the public to view detailing at least rescue phone numbers for each stores locational area so that the public could see for themselves which rescues are in their area and allowing them to choose who they adopt from ;)

I'm reading this time and time again and it saddens me. We currently have 5 rabbits in store looking for homes. 3 boys from a family who thought it would be fun to breed their rabbits and realised they couldn't find a home for them. One boy whose family decided they didn't want him anymore. One boy whose owner abandoned him with his flatmates (allegedly). None of the rabbits came from us. So....because these rabbits were brought into a PAH adoption scheme, they aren't entitled to find a good home?

But the above statement is what many rescues face time and time again and fustrations run high for anyone trying to rehome animals and reasons as to why the animal came in in the first place but what the scheme has yet to encounter is, when certain animals are still with them after 2 - 3 years, what happens then when the ideal home does not come along and the space on the shop floor is need for another bun in need?

In the Rabbiting On mag, a spokes person for p@h has stated that over 2000 pets are being rehomed per month amongst 139 stores (with more stores planning to do the adoption scheme) which in my opinion is actually quite a high adoption rate. It means that an average of 14/15 animals are being adopted through the scheme per store per month which is a higher turnvover than your average rescue that caters for alot more rabbits up for adoption compared to the amount up for adoption in p@h stores;)

I know it saddens you to hear that given a choice people would probably rather go and adopt a rabbit that has been stood in rescue for 6 months or a year but you have to ask yourself 'why is that' or 'why do they opt to go to a rescue once they find out about them'?

[MaxiandScottandbuns]

Ah right....so a rabbit brought into the PAH adoption scheme isn't entitled to as good a home as a rabbit from a rescue centre?

I'm reading this time and time again and it saddens me. We currently have 5 rabbits in store looking for homes. 3 boys from a family who thought it would be fun to breed their rabbits and realised they couldn't find a home for them. One boy whose family decided they didn't want him anymore. One boy whose owner abandoned him with his flatmates (allegedly). None of the rabbits came from us. So....because these rabbits were brought into a PAH adoption scheme, they aren't entitled to find a good home?

No of course not! Thats completely not what im saying...were thrilled Joey now has a good, loving home, and of course all buns deserve love as much as eachother...

What im saying is we need to look at a slightly bigger picture for the sake of rabbits everywhere. For all the reasons people have already stated here a lot, like the fact that P@H arent helping the situation with rabbit overpopulation and abandonment...Which is why i said i regretted giving my money to the place

Its not about the individual bunnies in those situations because if we could never look beyond that and wed take rabbits from all kinds of nasty places and this horrible problem would never end. Longer term we need to think who we should be funding and supporting and who we shouldnt...who is making things better for all bunnies and who is making things worse

This isnt anything against the poor unwanted bunnies in P@H because it goes beyond that. It is exactly because unwanted bunnies break my heart that i am talking this way. To me it only seems like a sensible view after what i have learnt and seen

[Lspacehopper]

go hand in hand:?:?:?


I'm reading this time and time again and it saddens me. We currently have 5 rabbits in store looking for homes. 3 boys from a family who thought it would be fun to breed their rabbits and realised they couldn't find a home for them. One boy whose family decided they didn't want him anymore. One boy whose owner abandoned him with his flatmates (allegedly). None of the rabbits came from us. So....because these rabbits were brought into a PAH adoption scheme, they aren't entitled to find a good home?


I know it saddens you to hear that given a choice people would probably rather go and adopt a rabbit that has been stood in rescue for 6 months or a year but you have to ask yourself 'why is that' or 'why do they opt to go to a rescue once they find out about them'?

You've taken my response out of context. I have no issue with people choosing to go to a rescue for a rabbit. All power to them. What I have a problem with is people deeming one rabbit more worthy than another.

[Cob-Web]

I dont see how this is all directed to PAH, there is haskins that sell rabbits and many numerous pet stores, tackling one big store will not solve the problem, enforcing proper rules and regulations on making sure these rabbits go to appropriate responsible homes and making sure people are well educated on how much time, money and love rabbits need will. Hopefully all stores eventually will be banned from selling all livestock.:(


P@H is the only Store I know that has an associated Charitable Trust for which the store raises money and which offers "*rescue rabbits* (whether they be signed over to them by the public or stock that has not sold) :?

The sale of live animals for profit is, in my humble opinion, a separate debate - the issue for me is the close association between the Charity and the Business and whether it is possible to keep them separate when the Trustees of the charity are also Directors of the company.

[Lucy]

You hit the nail on the head with the phrase 'overpopulation'. There are thousands of rabbits being bred for one store, when there are thousands in rescue or need of rescue all over the country. We simply do not need rabbits breeding in those numbers when there are not sufficient numbers of good homes waiting.

[rspcarabbits]

Reading that a large pet shop re-homes 2000 rabbits from 139 stores in a month leaves me shocked, I had no idea that such a new venture was operating at such a level and furthermore still set to expand.

To re-home to standards people in this forum generally approve of takes time and money in equal doses.

When rabbits come to us for a start you have to give them a least a few days to settle in, book them in for neutering, vaccinate them for myxo , get them neutered, give them at least another 2 weeks before you can vaccinate for vhd and start any pairing up process. This is with a generally healthy bunny. If one comes in with problems it can take months. One bunny of a pair recently came to us with skin myxo and a scab approx 2inchs wide accross the bridge of her nose amongst others. She was put with our fosterer whist the scab eventually reduced in size and came off when about the size of a 1p. She then needed an op to close the gap up as you could see through to the bone! The point I am making is this took time -4months! .

Unless you have vast numbers of bunnies out back so to speak and unlimited finances or you re-home with very little in the way of neutering and vaccinations not to mention pairing up,treatment and re-habilitation, these numbers just do not appear possible.

This leads to the following questions.

What happens to those bunnies left with them that have long term ongoing problems at the time of being dumped?. Are they being catered for and given the time and money they deserve?.

What effect having such a public display of in house rescue re-homing will have on nearby recues that do do all of the above such as us. We are in some ways lucky, the rspca has a brand name as big as them and some people will always seek us out knowing what we try to achieve. But for the small independant rescue near to such a large concern without the public face ,how can they hope to carry on when faced with such competition.

No the playing field isn't level and one group appearsl do far more with its bunnies with regards animal welfare than the other, but will Jo unaware public realise this?.You only have to read how many members of this forum got their bunnies from a large pet shop before they became "rabbit aware"to get the point.

In the past one group has always recued and the other just sold new stock.However the distinction has now been blurred and the result could well be a lowering of standards as small dedicated rescues close up or become holiday accommodation only leaving mainly large pet shops to do the" rescue"job in some areas.

If you think this is scaremongering take a look at the effects supermarkets have had on the diversity of greengrocers, butchers, fishmongers and general stores in all our highstreets. Yes they do it cheaply but at what cost?

The same could well happen to rabbits.

[honeybunny]

Have to say I was willing to keep my opinions open and talked about "pairing" up with PAH..but I thought this would mean them helping to rehome our rabbits ..
...but their HQ said they would not want our rabbits in store.(overseen by me and rehomed by us)..they want their own "adoption" stock and process in store...but they would display a poster for us..sorry but the words "big deal" sprang to mind. This doesn't represent pairing up and supporting a local rescue to me..

[Denny]

What effect having such a public display of in house rescue re-homing will have on nearby recues that do do all of the above such as us. We are in some ways lucky, the rspca has a brand name as big as them and some people will always seek us out knowing what we try to achieve. But for the small independant rescue near to such a large concern without the public face ,how can they hope to carry on when faced with such competition.



I have been wondering the same thing too:( With such low donation fee's and the majority of the general public being un-ware of these independant rabbit rescues in their area's I can foresee rehoming for independant rescue becoming low if non existant for some:(:( Perhaps a monitoring system for those rescues whom have a p@h adoption scheme on their doorstep might give us an indication what this scheme will do/is doing to the independant rescues:?:?

[matty]

at the end of the day this argument will keep on going until P@H stops selling rabbits altogether which (as i think we all know) will not come quick enough. regarding P@H animals in adoption centre i would like to put across a point. at my store we had a hamster that was so unfriendly it would screech as soon as you put your hand in the cage and try to bite which meant that no customer would want to buy it unless very experienced which would still be unlikely. now would you want it to stay on the shop floor possibly not being sold for months or even longer (maybe all its life) or go off for adoption where its chances of a better life are greatly improved. i honestly dont believe that the powers at be within P@H got together to try to create some kind of smokescreen to make the company look better. although they could do so much more to help the huge amounts of animals waiting for a loving home all across the contry at least joe public has a place they can dump there unwanted animals because they dont know that better rescues like many of yourselves run exist. i also think that because some points about P@H will never be agreed upon, maybe it would be best drawing a line and leaving them behind rather that continually argueing over the same point over and over again. sorry for the huge speech

[dylanflo]

I sleep softly knowing that a rabbit in need has been helped however and wherever it was needed. The hay allergy does appear indeed to be an allergy to dust as confirmed by our experiments and our own Vet. I just worry that all this hatred (strong word but you should see the hate mail in my private mail box, thanks Guys) would deter rabbits who still need help from being helped. Thats definitely worth some thought I think. The cliqueishness in here will also deter other members also. Quite disappointed in humankind. Pets at Home trade within the law, until the law changes they will continue to do so and make profit. Perhaps a structured effort to get the law changed is more worthy of all this energy. Now that I would support whole heartedly. Temporarily though there are rabbits needing help. I am not suggesting rescues provide the help. But private individuals if you can help that would be great. Thought needs to be given to rabbit itself.

[rspcarabbits]

I have been wondering the same thing too:( With such low donation fee's and the majority of the general public being un-ware of these independant rabbit rescues in their area's I can foresee rehoming for independant rescue becoming low if non existant for some:(:( Perhaps a monitoring system for those rescues whom have a p@h adoption scheme on their doorstep might give us an indication what this scheme will do/is doing to the independant rescues:?:?

If the results we're to show problems, what could you do about it? Large pet shops have their own agenda just like supermarkets, yes they supposedly pay lip service to the local community but it has not stopped them selling one single thing.

Furthermore if the one(s) treading this path right now deem it a success and beneficial to their buisness you can be sure others who maybe now do not sell livestock may well view the proceedings with a certain degree of interest.

If the handling of "rescue rabbits etc" deflects enough of the critisism away from them so that the sale of new livestock is seen by many as "being in balance" and acceptable ,then the idea that pet shops will one day not generally sell livestock is further away than ever.

Maybe we should start another thread, "The future of rabbits " and see what people think. It would make an interesting comparison in 30yrs time to what has happened with the general sale of food in this country.I feel one thing is for certain,this is just the tip of the iceberg or the thin end of the wedge.

I also think I can say without a great degree of contradiction ,supermarkets do not appear to have that many scruples when someone stands in their way or to which areas they confine their buisiness .

[Mandy]

I sleep softly knowing that a rabbit in need has been helped however and wherever it was needed. The hay allergy does appear indeed to be an allergy to dust as confirmed by our experiments and our own Vet. I just worry that all this hatred (strong word but you should see the hate mail in my private mail box, thanks Guys) would deter rabbits who still need help from being helped. Thats definitely worth some thought I think. The cliqueishness in here will also deter other members also. Quite disappointed in humankind. Pets at Home trade within the law, until the law changes they will continue to do so and make profit. Perhaps a structured effort to get the law changed is more worthy of all this energy. Now that I would support whole heartedly. Temporarily though there are rabbits needing help. I am not suggesting rescues provide the help. But private individuals if you can help that would be great. Thought needs to be given to rabbit itself.

I hope no one on here has sent you nasty PM's? Please contact me or another moderator if you have any concerns.

[Lspacehopper]

Have to say I was willing to keep my opinions open and talked about "pairing" up with PAH..but I thought this would mean them