Just Because it Can be Done Does Not Mean it Should Be.........??

On another Forum I read a post about an 11 year old Bun who had an op in April to remove a lump on his head and to repair a hernia.
The Biopsy of the lump revealed a Neurosarcoma (Cancer)
The lump has returned and it has been suggested that the *11 year old Bun* has more surgey then chemo and radiotherapy. Both of which have nasty side-effects

I am sorry, but IMO that is cruel.

Advances in Rabbit Medicine are good but *not* when the Bun appears to become a scientific experiment

What do you think :?

Janex

There comes a point where comfort and dignity have greatest priority over advancing scientific knowledge and I believe this is just such a case. Elderly humans can struggle to cope with conventional treatments.
Quality of life not length.
Poor bun.

I agree. It's not fair to put it through so much. But humans have to go through painful treatments. We can't be put to sleep. I think that if the rabbit can have some dignity, so should humans.

Definately should be left. poor little bun.

well bunnies don't care if they die tomorrow, so long as they have fun today, so I'd opt for an injection of domitor (of course :? ) and humanely PTS in that situation - I can't see this bunny getting much fun out of life on chemo and living at the vets

I agree with you Jane, I think it is cruel... TBH I wouldnt do it on my dog let alone my bun... The poor bun has had 11 years, why should he spend whats left of his life in pain and discomfort just to prove a medical point

I agree too. Its just too unfair to put the bun through painful treatment at that age. Poor bunny

LionheadLuver said:

I agree. It's not fair to put it through so much. But humans have to go through painful treatments. We can't be put to sleep. I think that if the rabbit can have some dignity, so should humans.

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My mother is undergoing chemo for lung cancer and what she is going through i would not put a bun through as this would effect a bun more as it does not know whats happening then theres radiotherapy after that aswell,and at that age of the bun mentioned no not good,rick

mullethead said:

My mother is undergoing chemo for lung cancer and what she is going through i would not put a bun through as this would effect a bun more as it does not know whats happening then theres radiotherapy after that aswell,and at that age of the bun mentioned no not good,rick

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So sorry to hear that your Mum is very poorly

Janex

IMHO if the rabbit was a youngster and had many years left to live and there was the chance of a good prognosis for a full recovery then I might consider it - would depend on how agressive the tumour is and how long the chemo and radiotheraphy would be and how severe the side effects. Even then though I would have to weigh up the pros and cons before I decided and I certainly would not allow my rabbit to be used as a guinea pig just to experiment on. For an elderly bun such as this I would not even consider it. I would just keep him comfortable and pain free for as long as poss.
Taz

Jack's-Jane said:

So sorry to hear that your Mum is very poorly

Janex

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No its ok she is doing really well the tumor is shrinking right back so she is in the lucky half but for what it has taken with blood transfusions ,chemo and all there side effects i could not see an old bun going through,rick

mullethead said:

No its ok she is doing really well the tumor is shrinking right back so she is in the lucky half but for what it has taken with blood transfusions ,chemo and all there side effects i could not see an old bun going through,rick

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Hopefully your Mum will go from strength to strength now
It must be awful to endure treatment that makes you feel worse than the disease itself

Janex

I think it's up to the owner to look at the pros and cons and decide.
Yes, the majority of people may think it's cruel to do but everyone has their own limits.
I, for example, wouldn't go half as far as some of the members on here have gone for their rabbits. As Elve said, they don't know whether they'll be alive tomorrow, they don't make plans for the future. In the wild rabbits would be living for the day - mating 'like rabbits' to continue the species as they could be dead a few hours later.
I'm sure there are plenty of things done by members on this forum for rabbits that other members don't disagree with

You know what my thoughts are on this Jane

Its a mantra I live my life by for our rabbits. I dont think its the owners limit that needs to be questioned but that of the rabbit. We should not figure into the equation in my opinion, as harsh as that may be.

The human race is a very selfish one but also very good at justifying itself to itself :?

Sometimes we just hear what we want to and hang the consequences for anyone else.

Sometimes the extra life expectancy that *may* be gained does not offer the rabbit compensation for the pain it will endure to get there. That is what needs to be evaluated.

Sooz22 said:

Its a mantra I live my life by for our rabbits. I dont think its the owners limit that needs to be questioned but that of the rabbit. We should not figure into the equation in my opinion, as harsh as that may be.

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I think it does. The whole reason pet rabbits exist is because of humans. At the end of the day we could all stand together, decide to end this pet owning business to ultimately end the neglect, mistreatment, etc itself and have refuse to support it at all, even if that means not taking on any rescues, having animals PTS, etc. - the animals have no perception of their lifespan.
What do our animals really have to gain by adding an extra week, month, year on to their life?
I keep pets because I'm human and selfish and I enjoy having pets. Yes, they're kept in standards where they're not in pain, have toys and mental stimulation, companionship, food, warmth etc. but their life is pointless.
We could save animals suffering and have them put to sleep at the first sign of bloat, malloclusion, cancer, etc. but most peope choose to fight with the treatments we have available. At the end of the day it's our decision - without intervention these animals would die, but they'd be slow painful deaths. Why is our decision to save these animals from pain one that will usually cause them more pain before they get better instead of releasing them from their pain permanently straight away?
At the end of the day pet owners are selfish, you just get some who are kinder to their pets than others

Sooz22 said:

You know what my thoughts are on this Jane

Its a mantra I live my life by for our rabbits. I dont think its the owners limit that needs to be questioned but that of the rabbit. We should not figure into the equation in my opinion, as harsh as that may be.

The human race is a very selfish one but also very good at justifying itself to itself :?

Sometimes we just hear what we want to and hang the consequences for anyone else.

Sometimes the extra life expectancy that *may* be gained does not offer the rabbit compensation for the pain it will endure to get there. That is what needs to be evaluated.

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Completely agree Sooz.
There are some people who will throw in the towel at the first hurdle or not fully research treatment options. But I think the suggestion of putting an 11 year old Rabbit through such invasive and aggressive treatment is wrong . Thankfully it appears that the Rabbit's carer feels the same and is looking into paliative care options.

Janex

And I'd just like to clarify that I wouldn't put an animal down at the first sign of problems, that's just theoretical rambling of what maybe we should do. I'm one of those selfish owners who will fight for a pet, though there are some treatments that I think are going too far (I personally wouldn't put an animal through chemo or radiotherapy but I think it's harsh to call the owner cruel because they think it's worth it)

Ben's mum said:

I keep pets because I'm human and selfish and I enjoy having pets. Yes, they're kept in standards where they're not in pain, have toys and mental stimulation, companionship, food, warmth etc. but their life is pointless.
We could save animals suffering and have them put to sleep at the first sign of bloat, malloclusion, cancer, etc. but most peope choose to fight with the treatments we have available. At the end of the day it's our decision - without intervention these animals would die, but they'd be slow painful deaths. Why is our decision to save these animals from pain one that will usually cause them more pain before they get better instead of releasing them from their pain permanently straight away?

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By your standards all life is pointless ultimately we are all heading to the same end Life is a prolonging of the inevitable....maybe we should all be PTs at birth or aborted at conception and just cut out the middleman.

As I said in the above post you need to weigh up how much pain will be caused and how much life (and life quality) will be gained from that. Remember also that for some poor animals PTS is not a humane option due to the negligence of the attending veterinary surgeon, yes I am still hurting.

I have a 7 year old bunny Pippa. She has tumours on a third of her body tissue. They do not cause her pain and she is happy, friendly and carefree. Ultimately I could have insisted these were removed. This would be a minimum of a two step operation and the chances of her surviving the first let alone the second are very slim. She would be in a lot of pain for a couple of months and then it would start again. She may gain just a few months or possibly a year or two. She may have a year or two anyway.

How could you justify operating in that situation? I cannot. This is an extreme scenario.

Caspian has had bloat and Stasis problems for the few months I had him. This was indeed painful for him. He weet into full bloat and stasis in October and spent 3 days in pain (if not on pain relief). With intensive nursing we pulled him out and he was fine.

5 weeks later he relapsed. This time it lasted 6 days and he was still getting worse. Opiate painrelief was barely taking the edge off. We knew this would keep happening as he had either an internal growth or pyloric stenosis. I could have opted to operate and put him through even more distress and pain from which he would likely die. I could have opted to keep trying with medication in a desperate attempt to pull him through.

But for what? So that in another 5 weeks time he would relapse into yet more pain? Im sorry but I cannot justify a week of agony with 3 four hourly injections for 5 weeks of 'normal' life. I would so happily have done this to keep him but it would ultimately only be in my interests and not his.

That is not what loving someone entails. Loving someone is acting in THEIR best interests at all times, regardless of the personal trauma you will endure from that.

I agree, life is pretty pointless, if you're not religious then basically we're all here just to reproduce, for some bizarre reason
However, incase you hadn't noticed (and I pointed it out in my post) I'm one of those selfish people who has pets because I enjoy having them. I live life because I'd rather be alive than dead, even if I do have no point being here.
I mean no offense to you, hence not wanting to use it as an example earlier, but as you've mentioned him now I'll bring up Caspian. I think you did the right thing having him put to sleep and out of his pain but if he'd been put the sleep the first time, OK he wouldn't have had those extra 5 weeks but he wouldn't have had all those days in more pain.
I'm not saying you made the wrong decision - for all you knew he may have recovered and lived years. At the end of the day we DO have to be selfish and decide how far we'll take it. We can 'throw the towel down at the first hurdle' - we might potentially cut years off an animals life if it would've recovered but we might have saved it weeks in pain. We can try basic treatment and then give up when it's apparent things aren't going better - but then we've put an animal through pain for 'nothing' other than our hope it would recover. Infact, is the latter not what this person in the original situation is doing - hoping the pain they may put their rabbit through will result in a better, painfree life? Who's to say an 11 year old rabbit is no less worth of an extra month to it's life than a younger one? Yes, it's old and probably going to die soon but does it not deserve a natural death as much as another animal?
I've put rabbits through incisor removals to give them a better quality of life. This is totally unnatural - in the wild they'd die and natural selection would improve the overal species. How can we judge to other people when to draw the line about unnatural treatments?

I think when you are talking about putting an 11year old rabbit through a painful ordeal, then that is completely unjustified... us humans have been domesticating animals for centuries.... I for one could not live without my animals. I also could not put any of my babies through unneccessary suffering just to keep them alive a day longer than needs be...