bonding 3 boys failing, please help

Hi,

The rescue bonded my two boys (neutered brothers, age 8 months) with their father (also neutered). On the first couple of days there were 2 spats of fighting between the dominant brother (Ernie) and the father (Blue), but on the whole they were getting on well, all grooming each other, etc.

Well, after 4 days of successful bonding I now have them home, after scrubbing the hutch and everything in it, spraying citronella etc. Yesterday they were all snuggled up together and good as gold all day. This morning Ernie and Blue started fighting (not sure what triggered it) and have been doing so on and off all day. By fighting I mean not just chasing and fur pulling but throwing themselves at each other and trying to bite. Ernie has been instigating most of this but Blue always wins. I pull them apart when they 'lock' but have left them alone to chase. Food hasn't distracted them!

Ernie has stopped going at Blue, but this afternoon whenever Blue approached Ernie (and not in an unfriendly way) he would run away from him and has been sitting in the opposite corner.

I rang the rescue and they are happy to either take Blue back or retry the boys again on neutral territory. However, since this call Ernie and Blue have decided to sit side by side (no grooming but companiable) :shock:

What do I do? I'm tempted to leave them, I feel that even if they are taken out of this territory they will have the same issues when they're placed back in it. Am I just prolonging the situation? Is anyone hopeful things will work out or is it just cruel to keep trying? They are all eating so I think the most distressed one is me

Sorry to go on and on but the whole thing is rather distressing

To be honest it sounds like it's going ok to me. The scrapping is probably because they're having to re-establish things on the new territory but the fact that Ernie is running away from Blue now suggests to me that he's accepted he's the boss but isn't too happy about it - I'm sure he'll get over it

I'd wait for a while longer. Don't separate them unless there is blood. I had my group of 4 together for about 6 weeks, and then I finally gave up because the youngest got bullied too much and the bullying got worse. So keep trying, just keep an eye on them as often as you can.

Bavarian Bunny said:

I'd wait for a while longer. Don't separate them unless there is blood. I had my group of 4 together for about 6 weeks, and then I finally gave up because the youngest got bullied too much and the bullying got worse. So keep trying, just keep an eye on them as often as you can.

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Should I bring them into the bathroom (neutral territory) tonight or just leave them to it? I'm terrified I'll come down to carnage if I leave them outside.

I have a bit of a similar situation with my three, the girls Poppy and Sweet Pea got on fine at first, then Poppy started chasing and biting sweet pea, I was considering seperating them but they both got on with Gus so well I though I should keep trying. I put them in a smaller space (dog crate rather than the whole room) and things have improved. Dreading putting them back though!!

I would persevere all the time they are eating etc they can't be too stressed? Unless damage is done I would keep at it. Have you tried squirting water at them when they are fighting.

You could try and put them in the bathroom, but they will probably start the same thing again once back in their hutch. I tried to bring mine back onto neutral territory, but it did not help.
I hope Janice (jrn1310) sees this, she always has good ideas for bonding.

clairen said:

Should I bring them into the bathroom (neutral territory) tonight or just leave them to it? I'm terrified I'll come down to carnage if I leave them outside.

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Yeah that's probably what I would do but I'm no expert!

louise and Gus said:

I would persevere all the time they are eating etc they can't be too stressed? Unless damage is done I would keep at it. Have you tried squirting water at them when they are fighting.

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I usually just shout at them (god knows what the neighbours think, I sound like a fishwife), then get in between them and they stop. The craft so-and-so's look to make sure I've gone before they start again :lol:

Bavarian Bunny said:

You could try and put them in the bathroom, but they will probably start the same thing again once back in their hutch. I tried to bring mine back onto neutral territory, but it did not help.
I hope Janice (jrn1310) sees this, she always has good ideas for bonding.

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That's what I'm afraid of- going back to square one each time, but I'm terrified they will pull each other apart tonight when I'm not there to intervene

I would suggest not taking them out of the area they are to live in....everytime they are placed innew territory they will have to go through this reestablihment of hierachy just like they did at the rescue and then at your home. Its normal and until they have ben bonded for at least a few months expect it to happen everytime they enter a new domain.

Moving them or sending them back to the rescue will just start the dominance process all over again.

Janice uses a broom to separate the bunnies, when they get too aggressive.

Naughty buns! It is so hard to stand by and watch but unless they are locked together fighting it's better to let them work it out! Poppy tends to get bored chasing sweet pea after a while in a small space, but when they had the whole room she chased her constantly, poor sweet pea tried to climb the side of the crate to get away, she got about a foot off the floor and was clinging there like a squirrel :shock: :shock: :shock:

I also find it is worse when I have been making a fuss of them so have tried being a bit less hands on, which is hard.

Hope they sort it out!

louise and Gus said:

Naughty buns! It is so hard to stand by and watch but unless they are locked together fighting it's better to let them work it out! Poppy tends to get bored chasing sweet pea after a while in a small space, but when they had the whole room she chased her constantly, poor sweet pea tried to climb the side of the crate to get away, she got about a foot off the floor and was clinging there like a squirrel :shock: :shock: :shock:

I also find it is worse when I have been making a fuss of them so have tried being a bit less hands on, which is hard.

Hope they sort it out!

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Awww, poor Sweet Pea. Sunnie always got attacked when she went down th ramp into the run, but also in the hutch, when there was no food to distract the others. And yes, I have noticed that they get more aggressive with each other when I am next to the hutch, even without bringing food.

Well I spotted Poppy grooming Sweet Pea the other day and Sweet Pea has groomed Gus, which is a start as I don't think she quite gets she is supposed to groom other bunnies not just humans!

I would leave them in the hutch for now, I agree moving them indoors may reduce your own stress but it will mean that they are then going to have to reestablish their own dominance and territory as soon as you put them back in their hutch. Have you got or do you know anyone who has a baby monitor you can keep an ear out for them with?

Do ensure that they have adequate bottles, bowls and litter trays so that noone can be dominating any of these essential features they require.

Do you have any other rabbits about who they can smell and could be upsetting the dynamics of the group.

jrn1310 said:

I would leave them in the hutch for now, I agree moving them indoors may reduce your own stress but it will mean that they are then going to have to reestablish their own dominance and territory as soon as you put them back in their hutch. Have you got or do you know anyone who has a baby monitor you can keep an ear out for them with?

Do ensure that they have adequate bottles, bowls and litter trays so that noone can be dominating any of these essential features they require.

Do you have any other rabbits about who they can smell and could be upsetting the dynamics of the group.

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No, no other animals about. All I can think of is that it's been the boys' territory for the past two months and now Blue is 'invading' it. I've 2 water bottles and a few litter trays, couple of hay racks etc. I've got a baby monitor so will see if it can work outside. Eric seems to have formed a really close bond with his dad and so it would be a real shame if it doesn't work out. When would you say 'enough is enough' though?

clairen said:

No, no other animals about. All I can think of is that it's been the boys' territory for the past two months and now Blue is 'invading' it. I've 2 water bottles and a few litter trays, couple of hay racks etc. I've got a baby monitor so will see if it can work outside. Eric seems to have formed a really close bond with his dad and so it would be a real shame if it doesn't work out. When would you say 'enough is enough' though?

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When they draw blood. I attempted to bond 2 of my pairs together a couple of months ago. They lasted 8 days and then serious fighting broke out resulting in 2 buns with nose injuries.

Unless they are drawing blood I'd say stick at it though.

louise and Gus said:

Naughty buns! It is so hard to stand by and watch but unless they are locked together fighting it's better to let them work it out! Poppy tends to get bored chasing sweet pea after a while in a small space, but when they had the whole room she chased her constantly, poor sweet pea tried to climb the side of the crate to get away, she got about a foot off the floor and was clinging there like a squirrel :shock: :shock: :shock:

I also find it is worse when I have been making a fuss of them so have tried being a bit less hands on, which is hard.

Hope they sort it out!

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So do I, it's quite upsetting watching them. I also have been hands off, really have tried not to touch or fuss them. Poor little sweet pea though , but on the whole are you glad you persevered with bonding?

TheGaffer said:

When they draw blood. I attempted to bond 2 of my pairs together a couple of months ago. They lasted 8 days and then serious fighting broke out resulting in 2 buns with nose injuries.

Unless they are drawing blood I'd say stick at it though.

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Haven't seen any blood yet but can't believe the amount of fur that gets pulled out. I've found 5 or 6 handfuls today :shock: but they all seem uninjured

clairen said:

Haven't seen any blood yet but can't believe the amount of fur that gets pulled out. I've found 5 or 6 handfuls today :shock: but they all seem uninjured

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I never saw any blood with mine, but Sunnie is brown. When I ran my fingers through her fur, I could feel some crusts where she had been bitten. One of my foster bunnies arrived here with crusts, too. My bonded trio still does some fur pulling once in a while, just to reconfirm the pecking order.